Opening up and breaking in

[Ben Cooper]

Ok, I will admit it. I don't know really what is meant by a mandolin "opening up". I am guessing this could be a very long discussion OR over with one reply. What exactly is it? How does it happen? How does one notice any changes? Is it like when we used to get a new pair of jeans and they were stiff as a board until they had been worn and washed about a hundred times and then they felt comfortable? (Ok, this doesn't happen with jeans anymore with all the pre-washed cloth and stuff). This is something that has really been on my mind of late.
Thanks for any info or words of wisdom!
Ben

[stevedenver]

yes

It is real. Some instruments open more than others, some take a lot longer to do so. Never assume , however, that miracles will occur, with a not so good sounding instrument. Ie don't be fooled by someone telling you itll be great once it opens. A good instrument will sound better. A dog , not so much. Never buy with the hope that 'itll open'. If it doesn't float you boat when new , it probably wont in five years, or you may never keep it long enough to find out.

What can happen, is that the wood loosens in an instrument. I don't know the science.

This in turn changes the sound of the instrument. It is subtle and hard to describe, but, it is very noticeable in some cases
The instrument, when it opens, and this is gradual, will sound bigger, richer, sweeter. (geez that helps a lot...NOT).

Think, perhaps, like this. You have your stereo tone controls all to the mid position. Then you add, perhaps, a little more bass, more mid, and if it were possible, a tiny bit of 'verb, ie the sound just seems to literally have more space filling character.

Another example, imho, would be to play a Martin with regular bracing, versus one with scalloped bracing. While not an exact analogy, you would get and idea of how, over years, a similar change MAY occur.

This happens with consistent and hard playing, and takes a couple of years. Mandos, especially tone bar braced, imho, longer. What is hard playing im my mind, about an hour or more, not only single string fiddle tune stuff, but banging chords, chopping, letting it ring and let those open strings sing. YOu can literally feel the mando 'humming' or vibrating against you as you beat on it. (not literally beat, not damaging, but 'playing with force and gusto!!" LOL

Adirondack spruce too. It is light, but stiff. It takes some really hard playing to knock it 'loose'. My archtop L5C has addy, and now after three years, its so much sweeter in treble and mid balance, and bass is also more pronounced.

My Addy topped mando is taking about 5 years, my englemann topped fern took a bit less. While im sure top, sides, and back all change, it seem to be the top that makes the most significant change in sound.


My fern really changed after I played it relentlessly, and lots of hard, open ringing chords, and chops etc, it is more resonant, and the treble mid bass balance is rounder and sweeter, bass has more thump-if there is mando thump- and is more alive and responsive to dynamics. Ie play it hard, and when you then play soft, its more nuanced and responsive.

This too happens with guitars, archtops and flattops. It can be expedited, im told, but leaving the instrument close to a stereo speaker playing loud and allowing the instrument to vibrate.

Finally, instruments, once broken in, but then unplayed for a month or more, will close, and re-open. The re-opening usually takes a couple of weeks.

I don't know if this helped, its a hard thing to describe, and likely , the owner or chief player will be the only one to really hear the change.

[almeriastrings]

Complex and controversial topic. Much disputed.

Personally, yes - I do believe such changes occur. Precisely what the changes are (there could be many) are debatable. My opinion is that changes in resin oxidization within the wood, changes in the glue, and certainly changes in the finish are quite noticeable during the first months (and few years) after a new build. You can accept that these changes affect the sound, or reject it... for myself, I am convinced they do have an impact. As for vibrations/playing time. Harder to pin down to some specific physical cause and effect, but subjectively, many people report it.

[Rodney Riley]

yes

It is real...

YOu can literally feel the mando 'humming' or vibrating against you...

Finally, instruments, once broken in, but then unplayed for a month or more, will close, and re-open. The re-opening usually takes a couple of weeks...

How my Godin does. My tinnitus keeps me from hearing the sound changes, but my fingers really feel it. Was shocking and fantastic the first time it happened.

Hasn't happened to my Weber yet.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

I agree as to the science of exactly how this process....no idea, but I can atest to it being a real phenomenon....Cedar tops though seem to not change much or "open up" it seems to be mostly Spruce wood. Be interesting to investigate this and pin down the science on this as to what actually happens after playing a new instrument over a period of time.

[Shelagh Moore]

Personally, I perceive (individual perception is an important consideration here) that many instruments do "open up" over use and time. The science underlying why this happens is likely to be complex and based on many factors... I won't attempt to go into this again as I didn't appreciate one or two of the comments last time I attempted to do so in a previous thread on the subject. Can it be scientifically measured and verified? Very difficult I think, as it would be difficult to set up a scientifically-valid comparison of completed instruments.

[Marty Jacobson]

The question is... are you breaking in the mandolin, or is the mandolin breaking in you?

[bratsche]

Finally, instruments, once broken in, but then unplayed for a month or more, will close, and re-open. The re-opening usually takes a couple of weeks.

I've never experienced that in such a short time. I rotate preferences on my instruments all the time, which often means one stays in the case a month or three, and when I take it out, it hasn't "closed" a bit. Decades in storage, sure. But they've opened up again in a few days of playing, not weeks... talking about newly acquired older and neglected (unstrung) violins and violas in this last part.

By far, the most dramatic opening of sound occurs with a new instrument. I suspect that the deal with already-broken in instruments that have merely been unplayed for a month or several months is a perception based on need to get oneself reacquainted with that instrument. (Personally can't imagine that process taking weeks, though.)

bratsche

[dfalkiewicz]

I believe this is a combination of my technique improving the sound along with the wood maturing over time! But that is as techie as I get on this one. I like would was said above, if your mando sounds cool from the get go, it will only sound better as it ages!

[Ben Cooper]

the question is... Are you breaking in the mandolin, or is the mandolin breaking in you?

lol!!

[Ben Cooper]

yes

It is real. Some instruments open more than others, some take a lot longer to do so. Never assume , however, that miracles will occur, with a not so good sounding instrument. Ie don't be fooled by someone telling you itll be great once it opens. A good instrument will sound better. A dog , not so much. Never buy with the hope that 'itll open'. If it doesn't float you boat when new , it probably wont in five years, or you may never keep it long enough to find out.

What can happen, is that the wood loosens in an instrument. I don't know the science.

This in turn changes the sound of the instrument. It is subtle and hard to describe, but, it is very noticeable in some cases
The instrument, when it opens, and this is gradual, will sound bigger, richer, sweeter. (geez that helps a lot...NOT).

Think, perhaps, like this. You have your stereo tone controls all to the mid position. Then you add, perhaps, a little more bass, more mid, and if it were possible, a tiny bit of 'verb, ie the sound just seems to literally have more space filling character.

Another example, imho, would be to play a Martin with regular bracing, versus one with scalloped bracing. While not an exact analogy, you would get and idea of how, over years, a similar change MAY occur.

This happens with consistent and hard playing, and takes a couple of years. Mandos, especially tone bar braced, imho, longer. What is hard playing im my mind, about an hour or more, not only single string fiddle tune stuff, but banging chords, chopping, letting it ring and let those open strings sing. YOu can literally feel the mando 'humming' or vibrating against you as you beat on it. (not literally beat, not damaging, but 'playing with force and gusto!!" LOL

Adirondack spruce too. It is light, but stiff. It takes some really hard playing to knock it 'loose'. My archtop L5C has addy, and now after three years, its so much sweeter in treble and mid balance, and bass is also more pronounced.

My Addy topped mando is taking about 5 years, my englemann topped fern took a bit less. While im sure top, sides, and back all change, it seem to be the top that makes the most significant change in sound.


My fern really changed after I played it relentlessly, and lots of hard, open ringing chords, and chops etc, it is more resonant, and the treble mid bass balance is rounder and sweeter, bass has more thump-if there is mando thump- and is more alive and responsive to dynamics. Ie play it hard, and when you then play soft, its more nuanced and responsive.

This too happens with guitars, archtops and flattops. It can be expedited, im told, but leaving the instrument close to a stereo speaker playing loud and allowing the instrument to vibrate.

Finally, instruments, once broken in, but then unplayed for a month or more, will close, and re-open. The re-opening usually takes a couple of weeks.

I don't know if this helped, its a hard thing to describe, and likely , the owner or chief player will be the only one to really hear the change.

Wow! Thanks lots! Very informative!

[Bob Clark]

Hi Ben,

Some say mandolins open up, others say they don't. I believe I have experienced it with two instruments, both of which were purchased new. One instrument took about six months before I noticed a change, the other took a little over a year. The change didn't occur all at once, it was gradual. But it was at those time points that I noticed the improvement. I don't think it was my playing that improved (although I sure wish it would), because the change was instrument-specific. I really believe a new instrument improves for a period of time, as it is played.

As has been pointed out above, I would not purchase an instrument I didn't like with the hope that it would improve. But if you purchase an instrument that you really like and it improves, think of it as a bonus.

Best wishes, Bob

[TheArimathean]

I think it has something to do with the placebo affect...

[stevedenver]

I think it has something to do with the placebo affect...

Well I dunno, but,
it might be , as mentioned, you get more 'dialed into' technique and improve-I know to some extent this happens when I really focus on accuracy on my D 28 with fingerpicks-or without-there is a way of coaxing more out.

I mentioned the sleep factor, because it was indeed while playing a lot, daily for hours, fingerstyle (ie fairly soft compared to flat picking) that I not only heard my Martin open, but after a hiatus , while playing electric , it sat, and I later returned, and it had, seemingly 'closed' and again took a couple of weeks to get big again. Even my teacher commented on this. I don't , however, poopoo the idea it may well be all in the head, or technique.

It might be that the wood 'seasons', in a way, ie the medularly grain crystalizes and gets harder, ditto glue you get less softness in the top wood.

While I really cant say, I know I have heard old an Yamaha, an old Harmony Sovereign, and have an old well played Ibanez mahog dred, all of which just sound far 'bigger' than what I recall when they (and granted, I, was new).

If it makes any difference, imho, none of this occurs, imho, with solid body electrics or basses.

However! there is no question that electric guitar amp speakers break in, the highs soften, the bass gets looser-I suggest that while a wooden instrument differs in materials from a loudspeaker, I would suggest that the same thing may be occurring.

I don't discount the possibility that I am crazy, but I don't think I am....LOL.

[OldSausage]

Leave it under a steel pyramid for 3 days, and I guarantee it will sound better. If anyone's interested, I have a few steel pyramids left over from my old razor-blade sharpening days, only $39.99.




[Note: Joke. I do not really have these items available, and am not really asking for money].

[JeffD]

Which is which and whether its real. Well opening up is how, to many folks, a new mandolin will, over the course of many months or a year or more even, gradually develop a warmer more complex tone. Attributed to many things, related to how the vibrations move the wood cells in ways that line them up with the vibratory modes thus optimizing the said vibrations. There are folks who claim it doesn't happen, and there others who claim that what the claimants describe is in reality a change in perception. You will see many adherents to both sides making comments here.

Breaking in is a the phenomenon that occurs in the first week or so of playing , where a new instrument becomes louder as all the parts and pieces get worked in together for the first time. There are folks who claim it doesn't happen, and there others who claim that what the claimants describe is in reality a change in perception. You will see many adherents to both sides making comments here.

Many are sure, from direct experience, that something happens. Others are sure that, since its not scientifically verified, it is more perception than reality.

It makes for long conversation and entertainment.

[OldSausage]

Claiming the arguments of each side are equal is also taking a position.

[Michael Bridges]

Is Not!

[OldSausage]

Is Not!

[Tom Coletti]

There's a few theories as to whether or not it's the wood opening up, improved playing, or just becoming one with a particular instrument to the point that you can produce the best tone out of it...

I personally think that it's a bit of all of them. I started out on a well-used Kentucky, so I don't think that it "opened up" much after I received it, more of just adjusting to the instrument and, over the course of four years, figuring out how to get it to run at its max potential. However, I recently upgraded to a new Breedlove FF. It sounded very sweet in the shop, and even though it was a little stiff and the bottom end was choked off a bit, it was still an improvement over the Kentucky. I adjusted my pick technique in the first week, but after a few weeks of frequent and hard playing, It started to sound much better, especially in the bottom end. It was less stiff and it rang with more clarity and presence, and the playability improved considerably. So yeah, I think that there may be some truth to the "opening up" theory as well as the others, and it is most noticeable either with a very new instrument or with a fairly old one; not too much in the middle ground from my experience except for how you develop as a player, which, in my opinion, is where the real improvement happens...

Cheers,

--Tom

[vegas]

This is a topic that has many opinions and theories about if it actually happens and how, but I think most people agree a stringed instrument seems to improve with continued use for a long time. How long? Well, generally speaking, the vintage instruments have a richer and fuller sound than most right out of the box but again, there are so many other reasons for this it is nearly impossible to point to a single cause and effect. I spent some time searching the net and found all sorts of theories at various message boards mostly involving guitar and if I remember correctly there was even an acoustic study done under purportedly scientific lab conditions which failed to turn up any measurable differences over the period of time the study used. As I recall, a great debate raged about the validity of the study and the methods were attacked as "unsound" (Ha!) by several posters who claimed acoustical engineering expertise.

Anyway, this theory eventually led to the invention of the Tonerite which claimed to produce vibrations directly to the top of your stringed instrument which would advance the aging process and "open up" your instrument after a week or so while you were sleeping instead of having to spend several hours every day for a year or more to produce the desired result.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_6bd0pf0rib_e

As you can see, the device is not cheap but various people used them and claimed they could hear a difference worthy of the cost. After reading a few threads on some acoustic guitar forums on this topic, I found a guy who said he avoided the Tonerite expense and got the same result using a $15.00 aquarium pump and that the vibration put out by the pump were the same principle as the Tonerite. I figured what the 'ell, I'm not spending $150.00 plus for a Tonerite, but I will experiment with the $15.00 aquarium pump. I actually only spent $12.00 because I figured the cheapest, loudest rattler was the one that would do what I wanted best. I tried it and I swear, I could hear an improvement in a 2011 D-28 I picked up on eBay after a few days of continuous application. It was the guitar I was most interested in improving and I feel I got some positive results for a minor cost. If it was only a placebo effect, I'm only out $12.00 and I can live with that.

I haven't tried it on a mandolin and am somewhat reluctant to take that step. They are smaller and more delicate an instrument than a dreadnaught and I would worry something might happen of terrible consequence to such a delicate little body.

[OldSausage]

I dunno, throw some water and gravel in there and you could rear some guppies while you're at it.

[OldSausage]

Look, here's an experiment everyone can do. I know most of you have dozens of mandolins, so it will be no problem. For those with only one, do it as a thought experiment. Take the mandolin you own that is the worst of the bunch. Think hard about how bad it is, and how, for the money you spent on it, it ought to be better. Think of all the things you dislike about its tone and construction. Strum it awkwardly, and hear how crappy it sounds. Sigh deeply.

Now lock it in a cupboard for a week. During that week, start to think about all the things you miss about that mandolin. If possible, watch videos of people who are better pickers than you playing a similar model. Contemplate how small improvements in your technique could have made a lot more of the good features of that mandolin. Maybe imagine that Adam Steffey has said he locks all his mandolins in a cupboard for a week, and it makes them awesome.

After 7 days, take it out of the cupboard. Polish it carefully so it shines, put on a new set of strings, and set the intonation just right. Now, clean up some of the mess in your room, sit down in your favourite picking chair and play three or four of your best tunes.

I guarantee you will be impressed with the results of this absolutely free treatment.

[greg_tsam]

This is a "can o' worms" topic with no end in sight. I wanna believe. I really, really wanna believe. I wanna believe in unicorns and fairies, too. However, I was playing a '45 Martin D-18 and couldn't get over how it sounded. Beautiful, resonant and the notes seemed to last forever. So I want to believe.

[JeffD]

Claiming the arguments of each side are equal is also taking a position.

I wasn't saying they were equal, or measuring, scoring or weighing them in any way. They are equal in this: Neither has been scientifically verified to the satisfaction of the other side of the argument. Oh and this: neither side can be dismissed out of hand.