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Thread: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

  1. #51
    Registered User houseworker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter Zanger View Post
    It΄s very interesting: 24 persons already made a bid.
    Actually only four bidders, one of whom dropped out at $2,222. You can't read anything into that bidding.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Selling a fake instrument at a ridiculously-inflated price would be a great way to launder $100k in drug money.
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  4. #53
    Mandolin addicted...So? Pete Counter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Doesnt Brandon Farley play with the bluegrass brothers?

  5. #54
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Do not want to break any rules here, so I will not provide a direct link... but... try a Google search.

    Terms like "Brandon Farley Bluegrass CD", for example.

    Obviously, no-one is suggesting any direct connection between any unproved allegations that may appear as a result of such a search to the current situation. It could be mere coincidence and there could be several individuals of the same name who play bluegrass mandolin.

    If I was thinking of buying a $9,000+ mandolin of dubious provenance, however, it would give me serious pause for thought.
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  7. #55
    Registered User Dale Pauline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    It has ended!
    Cheers,
    Dale

  8. #56
    Registered User Dale Pauline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    This listing (111103588009) has been removed, or this item is not available.
    Cheers,
    Dale

  9. #57
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Very interesting Act 2. Can't wait for Act 3. Keep an eye on Craig's List!
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  10. #58
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    And I have a sneaking suspicion that that there mandolin won't be 'seldom seen'!

  11. #59

    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    My advice to the seller would be to focus on its utility as a good instrument, and provide some kind of legitimate indication of who built it. I'd call it an homage built by a small-time, but regionally respected builder. Don't mention Loar, don't mention Gibson, just call it a nice F style bluegrass mandolin, collect your $2000 from a happy customer, and get on with your life.

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  13. #60
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    My advice to the seller would be a bit more colorful...
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  14. #61
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Perhaps this has been mentioned..

    The seller seems to have purchased the instrument rather recently. Is it possible he was burned by the same BS and is attempting to unload and try to make up for his ignorance, mistake and loss. ?

    That certainly does not excuse his misrepresentation.

  15. #62
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    The earlier ad had photos but not much text, was posted by someone in West Virginia with only indifferent command of written English, and was pulled as soon as it started to stir up controversy "because the item is no longer available." The Illinois seller most likely acquired it in an off-eBay transaction, and may indeed have originally believed he was getting a Loar for a song. When he realized he didn't have one, he decided to try to bluff his way out.
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  16. #63

    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    My advice to the seller would be to focus on its utility as a good instrument, and provide some kind of legitimate indication of who built it. I'd call it an homage built by a small-time, but regionally respected builder. Don't mention Loar, don't mention Gibson, just call it a nice F style bluegrass mandolin, collect your $2000 from a happy customer, and get on with your life.
    No, the problem is that it says Gibson on the dang thing in two places. He's going to have to sell it as a forgery, or report the guy he bought it from for fraud. Just a bad situation, and bad juju, if he gets away with selling it. Shoot, i'd try to defraud someone for a catholic relic before a musical instrument... baaaaad juju.

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  18. #64

    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    I hear you... and "forgeries" of famous violins are sold all the time. Granted, the old Cremonese builders do not have extent corporations and legal teams still policing their product IP and trade dress. Greg Boyd's sold Monteleone F-5 #8 at some point in the past several years.
    So there is a right way to do it. At least we now have a great example of how NOT to list one of these for sale...

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  20. #65

    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Yeah, and there's a kind of betrayal with a musical instrument sale like this that seems to go deeper. Even a car, which is more expensive, I can roll with being screwed as a mere business transaction... I mean, I'd be pissed and take action, but a musical instrument... that just feels wrong in a much more profound way...

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  22. #66
    Registered User Gary Hedrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    Do not want to break any rules here, so I will not provide a direct link... but... try a Google search.

    Terms like "Brandon Farley Bluegrass CD", for example.

    Obviously, no-one is suggesting any direct connection between any unproved allegations that may appear as a result of such a search to the current situation. It could be mere coincidence and there could be several individuals of the same name who play bluegrass mandolin.

    If I was thinking of buying a $9,000+ mandolin of dubious provenance, however, it would give me serious pause for thought.
    My oh my.......seen this story before......way too many times

  23. #67
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    I hear you... and "forgeries" of famous violins are sold all the time. Granted, the old Cremonese builders do not have extent corporations and legal teams still policing their product IP and trade dress. Greg Boyd's sold Monteleone F-5 #8 at some point in the past several years.
    So there is a right way to do it. At least we now have a great example of how NOT to list one of these for sale...
    Quote Originally Posted by PhillipeTaylor View Post
    Yeah, and there's a kind of betrayal with a musical instrument sale like this that seems to go deeper. Even a car, which is more expensive, I can roll with being screwed as a mere business transaction... I mean, I'd be pissed and take action, but a musical instrument... that just feels wrong in a much more profound way...
    I agree with Marty. There are copies of instruments which is what the original maker intended. Yes, John Monteleone and a good handful of makers made Loars as well as countless violin makers thru the centuries. Even today there is a company making D'Angelico guitars and i have seen on these pages many examples of super-accurate Loar copies. The key here is at the point of sale and whether the person is representing the copy as an original or a tribute and whether the seller is obscuring the truth.

    The other reality here is the quality of the forgery. It is obvious that it is no where near to resembling the real thing even to us amateur Loar sleuths. If it were done by a master copier/forger then it might take a true expert to make sure that it is not the real thing. That is what happens to a someone who wants to purchase a true Stradivari or Guarneri violin. Even then, sometimes the experts are fooled but that is not the case in this instance.
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  24. #68

    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Yeah, well I'm glad for one you "amateur" sleuths are here putting the word out... I'm new enough I can't tell without your guidance, so it warms my heart to know all you guys and gals are here... you saved the day for somebody, I hope, and I really appreciate the kind of effort you all put in to protecting us sincere dumbkins who can't tell a Gibson from a Fender without the Label!

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  26. #69
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    We have some serious pros here who can tell the dates of production just from the details without looking inside. The only downside is that some fool may have contacted the eBay seller of the eggplant name and worked out a deal for this mandolin. BTW does anyone know who actually made that one? I don't recall reading in any of the threads.
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  27. #70
    Registered User houseworker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    ...some fool may have contacted the eBay seller of the eggplant name and worked out a deal for this mandolin. BTW does anyone know who actually made that one? I don't recall reading in any of the threads.
    The listing was pulled by eBay, not the seller so he's unlikely to have sold it on yet. In these circumstances, eBay send those who have bid on the item warning them against dealing with the seller directly.

    There's a suggestion that the builder may have been a Stanley Bragg.

  28. #71
    Registered User Fran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Excuse my ignorance, but is this instrument an old copy (i.e. made a long time ago), or a newly-made instrument that has been "aged" to look old?
    "People will be more impressed with your playing than the price of your instrument."

  29. #72
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Seems to be recent; the reputed builder was known to be active just a few years ago:
    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...RAGG-MANDOLINS

    Some of the damage appears to be from repeatedly bumping into a microphone. There might have been some "aging" on it too.
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  30. #73
    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Well that was one of the more intense threads that I've followed recently. Glad it was stopped. But there will always be a curiosity.
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  31. #74
    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Just remember, this is one of hundreds out there that are being passed off as the real deal. A few months ago Scott Napier got taken on a deal that he thought was a real late 20's Fern Gibson F5 with a newer 70's neck on it. Turns out the whole mandolin was made from scratch in the 70's. It also had a repo Master Model label with a serial number that fit. It's simple if you are looking to buy a prewar Gibson F5. If you have any doubts get that 2nd even a 3rd opinion before you buy.

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  33. #75
    Registered User houseworker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    No great surprise, it's back: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1924-Gibson-F-5-Master-Model-Vintage-Mandolin-Very-Nice-Great-Tone-/121139411891

    Now described as "1924 Gibson F5 Master Model Vintage Mandolin" with a BIN of $14,000. Three day listing, it's the same seller and he's obviously hoping one of the previous bidders will bite before it gets pulled again.

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