Alex,
Your written English is fine. That you are carrying on a discussion of this nature in a non-native language speaks highly in your favor. I am always impressed with Europeans' (and others) language abilities when compared with the small number of Americans that speak multiple languages. In any case, I have certainly never had trouble understanding your meaning, and that is what important.
Eric
"The effect is pretty at first... It is disquieting to find that there are nineteen people in England who can play the mandolin; and I sincerely hope the number may not increase."
- George Bernard Shaw, Times of London, December 12, 1893
Hi Eric,
Thanks, and good to know!
By the way do you have the Sonate concertante in C-Major Op. 108 for mandolin and guitar by Leonard de Call? That´s some single line writing!
If not I´ll send you a copy!
Best,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Yes, it was exactly the Sonata Concertante in C-Dur (Op. 108) that we were playing tonight. It is indeed very simple stuff and works well with a plectrum (even on my Lombard mandolin). My duo partner loves the simple guitar part too! :-) I have the "Klassische Mandoline" edition edited by Wilhelm Krumbach. There are only a few chords... and only a few final six-note chords, but at least Herr Krumbach left them in!
I remember hearing some other nice von Call music for mandolin and guitar that I don't have... I'll have to go look it up.
Eric
"The effect is pretty at first... It is disquieting to find that there are nineteen people in England who can play the mandolin; and I sincerely hope the number may not increase."
- George Bernard Shaw, Times of London, December 12, 1893
Alex (Eric),
I swore that I would not get dragged into and beyond the 13th page in this discussion because it's going around in circles. Re-read what I've written, those are my arguments. I have read all of yours and know well how sincere you are genuinely interested and knowledgable about plucked stringed instruments. I really have nothing more to add but I believe there were several questions I raised that you have missed or choose to ignore (you'll have to go way back). I have no proof, then again I don't see anyone having any real proof. Anyway, opinions are like elbows, everyone has a couple of them. I really see no point in spending hours copying this music and adding fingerings and pick strokes that I have used or might use to illustrate how wonderfully perfect Beethoven wrote for the neapolitan or cremonese mandolins (tuned in 5ths). I have played these pieces many times and never did I have any reservations about the writing for this instrument. I've tried a few times to play them on the milanese (long time ago and just recently) and there I had serious reservations (primarily left hand). Go figure, we three are experiencing much different things with this music. Well, you could say it is because I've always played them on the neapolitan. This should apply to the well known Vivaldi concerti as well but, in my case, it is the opposite. I find the Vivaldi totally more natural on the instrument tuned in 4ths. Go with your convictions and my apologies for not agreeing with either you or Eric, I remain unconvinced for the reasons that I have stated before.
Good morning Richard,
It is a pitty that you have no time to fiddle around a bit with your right hand fingers on your Mandolino. I am sure you would understand my points (better). Well, one last tip: for a better grip on the strings perhaps string your big Larson Mandolino with only six strings. That´s what they did at the time in Vienna!
As for Eric and me, I don´t think the two of us are (quote): "experiencing much different things with this music". In fact we agree on the essence of the matter, and only share possible fingerings.
Eric was at first sceptical - probably because of Galfetti´s Cremonese playing, and perhaps even more so because his own Cremonese had arrived after restoration - ready to play and van Beethoven´s music seemed to run so well on it #- yet he could put that aside and work his way through the new fingerings for the instrument tuned in fourths etc.
What I understood is that a lot of the more ´problematic´ passages in the pieces wore solved and that he became more and more convinced that the music suited the mandolin in fourth best.
I don´t think I forgot any of your questions to answer.
As for the paintings that you mention with a Neapolitan mandolin on it, I thought I was clear enough, but I can say this straight away: I have found NO such paintings or drawings by artists who lived in Vienna and surroundings made in the period we are talking about (1775-1840). Did you find any? And you bet I am looking for mandolins on paintings!
I did however find paintings with Mandolinos and Milanese mandolins depicted on it...
But if I did leave any questions un-answered, please point them out again. It is enough to block the date of your post and the time you posted them.
Remember you started this Topic titled: "Historical mandolins and cultural preferences" . And we are only just starting to discuss the ´Classical´ part of your sub-title: ´Classical, Medieval and Renaissance´...
It´ coffee time # # ##
Many greetings,
Alex
PS. If you don´t like to go beyond page 13, we can of course start a new topic. There is still so much to unravel...
Correction: I read these pieces on the single 6 string Monzino. Second, I find absolutely no problems at all, in fact, I find the music exceptionally natural on the 4 course instrument tuned in 5ths. With the Monzino and these pieces it is anything but convivial to me. You are a guitarist and lutenist, that automatically gives you a different perspective. I am not and I don't believe Beethoven was either. As for paintings, I have only reacted to what I have seen in galleries on a casual basis or in book illustrations of the late 18th and early 19th century. No more, no less. Third, I retire from the debate, it was interesting but has kept me from my work. As I said before, fingerstyle is for you and others who enjoy playing this way and have the time or formation for this technique. I will not be the one to perform these pieces on a 6 course mandolino fingerstyle and I am sure Beethoven wouldn't be upset too much either.
Hello again Richard,
It has indeed been great debating with you! And I thank you for that. Especially since there are not many recording mandolinist who would do this (for obvious reasons). I really appreciate it and many of the board members (and others) here, I think.
Please join in again if you feel it´s necessary.
Warm regards,
Alex
Hi Richard,
I too thank you for the exchange. Even if we have not all come to the same conclusion, it was a valuable and fun experience for me. As I've attempted to say, I really *do* see much of what you have been saying (WRT to the Neapolitan tuning) as a valid perspective, and I certainly respect your opinions (and performances and recordings). I just have to explore this particular alternative to the end to satisfy myself. I may yet change my mind (again)... who knows.
And you're right, life is short and I play too many instruments. I am not a professional so I have the luxury of playing many things badly. What you said about "not having another life to persue finger-style" made sense to me. Having entered mid-life myself, I certainly respect your desire and need to focus. Too many mandos to explore and not enough time eh?
All the best,
Eric
ps - By the way, I just happened to try some of the Beethoven on my Lombard instrument yesterday with my duo partner and I agree that this instrument is less satisfying to play finger-style. With its heavier construction and close string spacing, my Lombard at least (an Albertini) is certainly better suited for plectrum play (for which it was clealy designed). From what I've seen, a real "Milanese mandolin" would be much lighter in construction... more like a contemporary mandolino.
"The effect is pretty at first... It is disquieting to find that there are nineteen people in England who can play the mandolin; and I sincerely hope the number may not increase."
- George Bernard Shaw, Times of London, December 12, 1893
Hi Alex,
As you know, I don't actually have a Milanese mandolin. So... I decided to take you up on your suggestion and I pulled the second strings off of my six-course Larson/Lambert mandolino just for fun. It looks a little silly now but the result actually works quite well for finger-style play. Even though this is not a small instrument, the extra space between the strings is certainly welcome.
As expected, the single string gives a different feel under the fingers and a different tone... one that I quite enjoy. Its no surprise but the Beethoven bits that I have tried are greatly facilitated with this change.
Eric
"The effect is pretty at first... It is disquieting to find that there are nineteen people in England who can play the mandolin; and I sincerely hope the number may not increase."
- George Bernard Shaw, Times of London, December 12, 1893
Hello Eric and others,
Yes, it looks strange but can be, as you already notiched, very useful in studying the finger style technique. Also the sound of it, now it is being played with single strings, is (although somewhat thinner) more near the quality of a Milanese mandolin.
An original Milanese mandolin trung with gut strings sounds very direct and ´bell´-like, a bit simmilar to the sound of a harp in it´s high register.
I talked today to Sebastian Nuñez, the luthier who made my Mandolino (6x2 model, after an original example by Ambrogio Maraffi, ±1735) about what strings and thicknesses are best to use on the Milanese type.
We came to the conclusion to experiment with the thicknesses and that it´s probably best to take silver wound on silk, for the 6th and 5th string and for the rest scheep/lamp gut. What do you think?
At the moment my Milanese is strung entirely with gut strings and that is fine, although the 6th could be more ringing. But that it is somewhat ´floppy´ is likely due to it´s age (I haven´t the faintest idea how old the strings are; they have always been on).
Another thing that makes these single gut-strung types (Milaneses and Cremonese) so interesting is the fact that they project so well! It could well be because they are extremely light in weight.
You have mentioned that your Cremonese was weighing almost nothing and that you could feel the vibrations of the wood while playing. Well this is the same with the Milanese mandolin.
So I will weigh it and have a talk with maestro Nuñez about that to. I am interested to know the weight of your Cremonese also (the others at the board will now probably really think that I´m ready to be certified...).
Another fact is that direct, straigt forward projection without much overtones is found best in instruments with an undeep oval shaped belly. Exactly that is what these two mandolin types are designed with. #
A lot to investigate and to copy perhaps!
For now best regards,
Alex.
Hi Alex,
>> An original Milanese mandolin strung with gut strings
>> sounds very direct and ´bell´-like a bit simmilar to
>> the sound of a harp in it´s high register.
Yes... "direct" is a good description... I strive for this sound on double-strung mandolinos as well... but its certainly easier to obtain with single strings... Indeed, I hear lots of fundamental and this seems to contribute greatly to projection as you say.
Speaking of harps, I have to tell you a story. I was exploring finger-style technique on my Strad-copy mandolino at an LSA summer seminar several years ago. I got a knock on my dorm-room door while I was practicing one day... it was Andrew Lawrence King (the early harp virtuoso) and he was very confused when I opened the door... From the sounds outside, he thought he had found another harp student... but he could find no harp in my room.
And yes, I'll happily weigh the Scolari this weekend.
Eric
"The effect is pretty at first... It is disquieting to find that there are nineteen people in England who can play the mandolin; and I sincerely hope the number may not increase."
- George Bernard Shaw, Times of London, December 12, 1893
I haven't read through the entire file on this subject, so possibly this topic has been touched upon, but I wonder if any of the major participants on this thread might wish to comment on the relative merits of the different historical reproductions of mandolino's/baroque mandolings that are currently being made (eg. a Larsen). I am thinking of ordering one and would like to accumulate useful information.
Robert A. Margo
Hello Margora/Robert,
Yes, great idea that would make sence best as a separate Topic on which I would certainly reply.
Greetings,
Alex
Hello,
Here is the 1st variation on the ´Andante con Variazioni´ of the "Variations pour la Mandoline et Clavecin" #by Ludwig van Beethoven. At first sight one thinks probably that this just has to be composed for a mandolin tuned in fifth. Especially because of it´s ´open´ key of D major, in which open strings like the d and a can ring on.
But a second look learns that this aspect is even more the case with an instrument tuned in fourth. #
By fingering it for the left- and right hand (finger-style technique) - and by trying several possibilities - I have become quite convinced again that van Beethoven´s music has been composed for the Mandolino/Milanese mandolin. In fact it turned out to be a wonderful example for fingerstyle playing.
Most interesting of the shown fingering here is that - ecxept for the scale passages of course - every triplet group (of three 16th) resembles a chord that can ring on. Playing it in this way gives a completely different sound quality and flow of the music.
Quite surprisingly so, especially when this variation is compared with the rather short ´staccato´ playing when it is performed on a mandolin tuned in fifth.
Best,
Alex ©
1st variation on the ´Andante con Variazioni´:
Hi Alex,
Thank you once again for taking the time to contribute your fingerings. I have personally found this variation to be more challenging than the rest of the Beethoven, but like Alex, I also find it very rewarding on the Milanese tuning played finger-style. This variation makes a great etude and I have learned some good technique from playing it.
Alex and I have corresponded privately on both right and left hand fingerings for this movement. I do some things differently but I agree with his overall approach. Its a bit ironic (given that I used to use more thumb in my mandolino playing) but I tend to now use more i-p-i-p than Alex indicates (though I understand why me makes the choices that he does and I'm evaluating them). Also, in some cases where he uses i-p-i-p, I now use p-i-m.... Go figure. I also seem to change my mind daily about fingerings... and my instrument is somewhat larger (both in mensure and neck width) than an ideal Milanese mandolin would have been.
In any case, this piece is indeed wonderfully different on the Milanese instrument played finger-style. As Alex mentions, the ability for notes to ring on in the arpeggiated passages lends a very elegant (harp-like) quality.
>> At first sight one thinks probably that
>> this just has to be composed for a mandolin
>> tuned in fifth.
Indeed, and like the other examples, a close examination shows it to be particularly well-suited and effective on the Milanese instrument.
Eric
"The effect is pretty at first... It is disquieting to find that there are nineteen people in England who can play the mandolin; and I sincerely hope the number may not increase."
- George Bernard Shaw, Times of London, December 12, 1893
I was doing some random searches on the net and I found an interesting Beethoven reference. #Not to drop names, but guess who else attributes Beethoven to the Milanese instrument.... none other than David Grisman!
http://co-mando.com/techniques/bthoven.php
(The text of the page seems somewhat garbled, however)
Interestingly he claims that Hugo D'Alton recorded the C-major Sonatine on the Milanese tuning (Saga 5350). Anyone happen to have that recording?
Eric
"The effect is pretty at first... It is disquieting to find that there are nineteen people in England who can play the mandolin; and I sincerely hope the number may not increase."
- George Bernard Shaw, Times of London, December 12, 1893
Eric, I understood that he played the C major on the Embergher and only the C minor on the Milanese type instrument. If he did play it on the Milanese, he must have used metal strings and a hard pick since that's the sound produced. I'll bring my copy of this recording when we meet up later this month. He also opts for an ornamented version that Beethoven had crossed out of his manuscript (c minor adagio). I was impressed initially by the c minor because it was fun to hear the variations once, but I found it didn't wear well after a few of these turns (the elaborations) and I think this is the problem that Beethoven anticipated. Less is more.
Incidently, the D major variations play or ring very well on the neapolitan or instrument tuned in fifths. Like an improved harp!
P.S. For Bortolazzi and Cremonese mandolin fans, I've finally managed to get a copy of the Duo Concertante (for violin or mandoline and Spanish guitar). It appears to be an English publication from the late 18th or first decade of 19th centuries. Missing title page and source, at least I have the music.
Grisman's assertion is intriguing. However, I put a little less weight on it than the assertions made by the debate underway here. He cites no evidence for the Milanese instrument beyond that Hugo D'Alton used it, and I suspect that's where his evidence ends. In some of Grisman's other writings, he gives the impression that all non-F5 mandolins are primitive ancestors to "real" mandolins; a notion that doesn't sit well with me or, I suspect, with most readers here.
While I appreciate Bortolazzi's reputation as a virtuoso, I think the greatest contribution he made to mandolin was in inspiring Hummel to write for the instrument. I find his endless sets of variations, with accompaniments completely devoid of rhythmic interst, to be nothing short of tiresome. Still, I am intrigued by the idea of the Duo Concertante. Any chance of seeing this music? Are you hoping to work up an edition for publication, Richard? I find the use of the term "Spanish" guitar a little odd from that date. I suppose the 6-string guitar did come to be known as "Spanish" in England as built by Panormo and his heirs, proteges, and emulators a little later.
Eugene,
This piece is much better than his variations, almost to the point that I think it might be by someone else. Bortolazzi wrote a number of songs as well with accompaniment of Spanish guitar and apparently some pieces for Spanish guitar and piano (this is what I pulled off internet research). All very intriquing and I couldn't agree with you more on the theme and variation piece. His sonata with pianoforte (not harpsichord) is pretty good and enjoyable to play and listen though lightweight. My intention is to prepare an edition which Ugo Orlandi will develop and have in print through an Italian publisher. I believe this is appropriate.
Hello,
The term ´Spanish Guitar´ was already ´in use´ just before 1800 in England (London) to make a distinction between this relatively ´new´ plucked instrument strung with six gutstrings and the, at the time, highly popular metal strung and chordal tuned ´English guitar´.
Around 1820 Louis Panormo set up his atelier in Bloomsbury and - clever as he was as a business man - ´confiscated´ the term for his sole use on his guitar labels.
Louis Panormo claimed by doing so that he was the only maker outside of Spain to make guitars in the Spanish style (see image).
Alex
Hello everybody,
As we were informed a while ago about German research about what kind of mandolin van Beethoven wrote his music for (reply on page 5 of this Topic, quote: "Die Werke sind alle für Neapolitanische Mandoline geschrieben"), and also the German quotation - as a kind of extra evidence - to the new Henle Verlag edition (Neuen Ausgabe von Dr. Armin Raab "Werke für Klavier und ein Instrument in "Kritischer Bericht zur neuen Gesamtausgabe", B.V, 4 Vorwort und Seite 166-171 #Henle Verlag, München 1993), I think some new info to you is at it´s place here.
Especially since (in the topic reply) no explanation at all was given for the supposition that the Neapolitan mandolin was meant, I took the trouble - curious as I am to find out more- and perhaps new developments in this case - and bought the latest edition of the work mentioned above.
A cople of days ago I received it and the very first thing of course was reading it from A to Z.
Very good research indeed, especially excellent into the piano parts of the works under discussion here.
As for the mandolin in the preface or pages 166-171 of this new "Gesamtausgabe" (1993), I found unfortunately no explanation in the text for the word ´Mandoline´ whatsoever.
In the preface of the Performers Edition (only the music that goes with the ´Gesamtausgabe´ 1993) of the van Beethoven ´Werke für Mandoline und Klavier - Urtext, Dr. Armin Raab, G. Henle Verlag (1994), I found these two lines on mandolin (quotation of the original English text, page III):
"Beethoven wrote these pieces for an instrument tuned to g-d'-a'-e''. Since he avoided figures idiomatic to the mandolin these works may be played on a violin without further ado".
And that´s all.
I think researching this interesting matter is still a good thing to be busy with.
Best,
Alex
Hello Alex,
I hope the rest of the book is interesting enough to account for the expenses, that you made. Because this information concerning Beethoven and the mandolin is frustrating. I expected more. Caterina Lichtenberg`s work is already in the post, travelling to me. I`m sure there will be more satisfying information.
Talk soon,
Plamen
Hello Plamen,
Yes, let´s hope so!
Greetings,
Alex
Hello,
Just to keep you updated, I thought it would be nice to show the fourth variation of the "Variations pour la Mandoline et Clavecin" by Ludwig van Beethoven.
By fingering it for the left- and right hand and by trying out several possibilities - I choose the following possibility for the Mandolino/Milanese mandolin. Again a wonderful example for fingerstyle playing.
There are of course more ways, for instance with more open strings, but his one runs just fine.
Have fun,
Alex ©
4th variation on the ´Andante con Variazioni´:
Hello Alex... and anyone else that is still listening.
My fingerings for Variation IV are similar to yours but for a few exceptions. I've taken the liberty of adding the differences to the version you provided (in black), I hope you don't mind.
Asside from the usual 2/3 and 3/4 differences that you and I usually have (due, probably to my rather large, improvised instrument), there are a couple other differences, some fairly minor:
- Starting in measure 1 in the higher position lets the hand just stay still later.
- In measure four I stay in the higher position as well rather than moving down. I rather like this solution as it lets the left hand stay still and the right hand has the consistent string spacing again with the two upper notes on adjacent strings throughout. This was a bit of a stretch initially on my (long) instrument but its easy for me now.
- In measure 12 I replace 2 with 1 on the 'a' and then shift up one fret in measure 13.
- I do a little bar in measure 16... though I can go either way on this one.
Anyway, I agree completely that this is a delightful movement on the Milanese tuning played finger-style.
All the best,
Eric[img]file:/home/eric/Projects/10K_upgrade/post-6-09524-Beeth_Var_4_eric.jpg[/img]
"The effect is pretty at first... It is disquieting to find that there are nineteen people in England who can play the mandolin; and I sincerely hope the number may not increase."
- George Bernard Shaw, Times of London, December 12, 1893
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