Historical mandolins and cultural preferences

[RSW]

Paul needs lessons with the quill (or pick), my rates are reasonable . I need lessons with the fingerstyle but I'm not going to go that route in this lifetime... enough is enough (too many trades). I suggest we play the double concerto together (one with quill or plectrum, the other with his fingers), it might be amusing. Tell me Alex (Eric), what went wrong with fingerstyle mandolino playing? Why was it abandonned? The guitar (fingerstyle) carried on and flourished, the mandolin would flourish again but in the hands of virtuosi petacci (plectrum wielding neapolitan players). The banjo would even see it's day (both fingerstyle and plectrum) in classical music. The lombard mandolin, of course survived until the early decade of the 20th century, but our notion of mandolin has been cemented with a double strung instrument tuned in fifths. I would expect that you would say because the concert halls are bigger, hmmmm??? Or the intimate house music went out of favor (surely not until the dawn of the gramophone era) and this would not explain why the guitar survived. Why are there so many paintings of the late 18th early 19th century depicting neapolitan mandolins rather than, as Alex suggests, the more common Milanese mandolin? Do find Clary's mandolin, and Kurcholz's (sp?) as well. Find Malfatti's mandolin and documents that give us belief that he was even a capable player. Right now my interest is in the Cremonese mandolin, for once an instrument that will be very quick and easy to string and tune (compared to the mixed wire/gut strings of the 18th century neapolitan. I only hope the sound is not too like a soprano guitar or too dry in sound.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

I'm sorry, I don't buy the argument that just because finger-style mandolino playing didn't survive the 19th century, it isn't worth persuing. I don't think anything "went wrong"...things change... simple as that.

>> The lombard mandolin, of course survived
>> until the early decade of the 20th century,
>> but our notion of mandolin has been cemented
>> with a double strung instrument tuned in fifths.

True enough... and I think this state of affairs is unfortunate and does a great disservice to our understanding the history of the mandolin. I suppose the victors (or survivors) always write the history. The finger-played mandolin went the same way as the lute, the straight-necked gut-strung violin, the one-holed wooden flute, and the wooden-framed piano. Shall we just pretend that they didn't exist and play their music on accordians? :-)

I'm joking, and I know you well enough to know that this is not your view. But seriously, I don't see any reason to ignore the finger-style mandolino/Milanese mandolin just because the Neapolitan tuning and plectrum play eventually became more prevalent. I have personally found finger-style playing on the mandolino to be deeply satisfying because I feel it has brought me closer to the intent of various composers -- both tonally, and ideomatically. I also play with a plectrum when it seems appropriate for the music and I enjoy that approach as well. We all have to make choices for our available time... I will likely never develop my plectrum technique suffiently to play Calace with satisfaction.... so be it.

I too would like to see Alex find hard proof for this theory (as would he!). Nonetheless, I now find his arguments quite compelling (as you may remember, I once had thoughts along this line as well). The more I look at Beethoven's mandolin music, the more supporting examples I find. These don't look like coincidences to me... or isolated phrases, but an entire, consistent approach to the music that is very effective. Unlike the notion that Beethoven simply wrote simple notes in the appropriate mandolin range, I see real understanding and intent for a specific instrument and technique here. I too love the Neapolitan instrument but I don't think we should automatically use it as a default answer without proof of its own.

I just this morning read through the simple little theme from the Andante and Variations... it works out just beautifully with finger-style technique on the instrument in fourths. Yes, its is very simple piece (put your vacuum cleaner down!), but there are also lots of places where the notes (and the chord progressions that underly them) ring on and reinforce eachother nicely on the tuning in fourths. Fingered correctly, (as Alex intimated in other pieces) these chords define, support, and complete the notes of the melody, and the result is resonant and lovely, and a delight to play. The variations too seem to just drop onto the instrument in a very satisfying way.

When I get some more time I'll try to post more specifically about what I'm seeing... but Alex's examples already do this quite well.

Any other views out there? Anyone else listening?

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Richard and others of course(!),


The Fingerstyle technique on the Mandolino and Milanese mandolin in Vienna and why was it abandonned

This playing technique for gut-strung mandolins tuned in fourth disappeared in Vienna in more or less the same way, only at a somewhat later time in history - quite similar to the Mandolino with it´s finger-style of playing had undergone elsewhere in Europe (for instance - in chronological order - in Rome Neapoli, Marseille and Paris). That instrument had in those parts of Europe to accept the rise of the mandolino Romano and the Mandolino Napolitano, both types strung with a mixture of double gut and metal strings that were played with a feather quill.

Very soon after the development of these two ´new´ types (around 1740) we see that the ´old style´ Mandolino players modified their instruments stringing them with metal strings and playing this old type with a quill, trying to compete with the ´new style´ quill players.


In Vienna, this happened also. But here we have already seen that - as I have explaned more detailed earlier on in this topic - the finger-style played Mandolino had a longer history as well as that gut-strung instruments were favoured best in music circles in Vienna (and Prague). Also the modification from double to single gut-strings has come to fore in my explanations, so I take it that my opinion with regard what took place in Vienna, is known in this matter.

So in Vienna, mandolinists were playing either a double strung Mandolino or the, for them, ´new´ single strung north-Italian Milanese type. This single strung instrument was probably only known there from the last quarter of the 18th century onwards. Both types however were up to the last years of that century, played finger-style.

It is my firm belief that this manner of playing disappeared gradually, yet fast, after the arrival and triumphs of the one virtuoso ever settled in Vienna: the #Brescian mandolinst and composer, Bartholomeo Bortolazzi. Most likely because he was from the north of Italy where gut was the favoured material to string plucked instruments with, he prefered gut strings on his mandolin more also, ranning metal strings completely into the ground in his method. An interesting fact in this discussion, I would say.

He played his single entirely gut-strung Cremonese mandolin with a quill made - as I have explained here - of a piece of cherry wood, and became widely known as THE mandolin virtuoso. So much so that already very soon after he resided in Vienna he was honoured with a Mandolin Concerto dedicated[!] to him by nobody less that Johann Nepomuk Hummel, who himself was at that time already a well-known pianist and composer.

Bortolazzi must also have been greatly respected as a mandolin teacher, even so much that he got the opportunity to publish his method - a tutor in the German language! - through a well established publising house. This on itself gives reasons enough to belief that he was very popular and must have had quite a number of students/followers.

It is obvious, that around 1800 plectrum technique on the #Milanese mandolin (Mandolino) was practised, something that becomes clear even more because of published mandolin music for this type, after 1805 (the year that Bortolazzi´s method was available in Vienna).

This ´new´ way of playing a mandolin with a (wooden) quill was adopted quickly because it was likely seen as ´easy´ - as it is looked upon still today - to learn (especially for beginners); one quill and only down- and up strokes.

Comparitive much easier to understand, than catching on with a well balanced fingerstyle technique that advertises ´voice´playing´ with a thumb and two- perhaps three fingers to play with. A technique also for which no method was available and only to be learned via oral tradition (not one method found(yet).
Whereas for the Cremonese mandolin, there was the Bortolazzi tutor! And this great maestro was of course their great example, being in their mids!#

Interesting is however that through the survived and published music we also know that not all Viennese mandolinsts shifted over to play Bortolazzi´s Cremonese type.

What they (Hoffmann, de Call etc.) and their pupils did take over from Bortolazzi is his playing style. That is why we see in their compositions so much scale passages, broken chords on adjoining strings and plain chords that can be simply played by giving the (six) strings one big stroke with a quill.

I think that after 1815 the Milanese mandolin fell into a decline (that is, in Vienna) and that it´s role in music circles was taken over by the Cremonese mandolin. Proof that the Cremonese mandolin stayed popular (or perhaps better said: was still played) and was composed for after Bortolazzi had left Vienna touring Europe, I found in surviving Cremonese examples build in the late twenties and fourties of the 19th century by Viennese makers!


So Richard, you can see in Bartholomeo Bortolazzi a kind of modern Andrés Segovia...


Cheers,

Alex Timmerman ©

PS. Please leave out in this discussion the Lombardian mandolin.
This name was not known at the time. The mandolin type with that name - which it was given by it´s makers to distinguish it from the Milanese mandolin - was not yet developed. This would take another 75 years!

PS II. Do I read well and notice a shift towards 4 single gut-strings, Richard?

# #Great!

[RSW]

No shift yet, all of my viollins (baroque through modern) are strung in plain gut (always have been, always will be) but I am involved more in other musics at this time and still do not have a Cremonese mandolin. Alex, your explanation of Bortolazzi's influence is quite strong, at least in what little reports we have of this instrument. There is, of course, the violinist/mandolinist Vincent Neuling who remains a mystery (active in Vienna and the Germanic countries). There are all those classic and early romantic period paintings favoring the neapolitan (these instruments must have been put in cereal boxes) that neither of you (Eric, Alex) seem to address. I agree with Eric that because an instrument goes out of favor has nothing to do with it's worth, my point in the previous post was to present questions (remember, I'm the devil's advocate here) that have to do with unexplained facts or inadequately explained. Let me now give you my own reason about the demise of the fingerstyled mandolino. I think it was because of the 'guitar'. It's always because of the 'guitar'. It had a greater range and more musical independance. It had many less strings to change and deal with (than the lute) and was probably easier to construct and maintain (you still see gobs of early 19th century guitars in musical antique shops, not so with the mandolin until the late 19th century). They also had a few more active virtuosi promoting this instrument. It was an instrument that could easily accompany voice or other melodic instruments and not compete with other melodic instruments. Bortolazzi didn't have a chance. Unfortunately, his music is not particularily interesting and this too didn't help maintain the profile of the Cremonese mandolin either. It wasn't so much fingerstyle or plectra (though Alex presents a good reasoning why the plectrum might have survived longer on these instruments), it was more to do with being out of place as a diva and not substantial enough in the bass register to be an accompanying instrument. It took the likes of Bertucci, Munier, Calace, Abt, Ranieri, Pettine and others to challenge the bigtime instruments on their own terrain (prima voce). They succeeded to a limited extent in the realm of classical music but not really made the lasting impact for the same reasons as in the past. The instrument lost it's parlor status to the guitar, and couldn't compete with the contemporary acoustic instruments on a symphonic scale.

I still do not and probably never will see what you see in Beethoven's music as being 'definitely and clearly' for an instrument tuned in 4ths. Being able to sustain odd notes, bring out inner voices (true voices or pseudo-voicings) is possible (on neapolitan/cremonese mandolins) with good technique. The problem I see so much with neapolitan mandolin players is that they lift their fingers all the time and, for this reason, have trouble sustaining notes in broken chords (if it is desirable to sustain). Remember from the violin, we do not always play arpeggio or barriloggi passages with sustain. If players learned how to keep their fingers down (more chordal) and spend some serious time with Aubrey Stauffer's or V. Abt's chordal pieces, you would be amazed how much more adept at these passages one can become with an instrument tuned in 5ths. Beethoven, Schubert and other 'pure' composers have never seemed to me decidedly 'instrument friendly'. They heard sounds in their heads and wrote it down and it was up to the players to figure out how to play it. You see this all the time if you compare their music with that of instrumental virtuosi who write with decided care for fingerings, bowings or plucked strokes (fingerstyle or pick). What can I say more. I could probably take passages from the Kreutzer sonata and finger them, add pick or finger strokes and say that Beethoven really intended this music for the mandolino or piccolo baritoyn or whatever. I am not disputting that Clary and the Prague mando scene played on single strung mandolino (milanese) type mandolins and that was how Beethoven might have heard this music played once (if he ever heard this music played) but these are all hypothetical questions that probably will never be answered.

Sorry Alex about using the term Lombard. I was actually referring to a Lombard mandolin, my A. Monzino from about 1890. I use to call it a Milanese (since it was made in Milan), it is the only single strung mandolin type I have tuned in 4ths. It sounds good (sort of guitar like) but you wouldn't want to use tremolo on it (sounds like a woodpecker playing a felt covered marimba).

[Alex Timmerman]

Good morning Richard,

Yes, the mandolin in Vienna had a hard time in competing with the guitar, even if it had really started rivalry.
Anyway, it would have lost the battle and not so much because the prim-guitar was a better alternative for accompanying voice (which it probably is anyway), but more so, since the terz-guitar (one minor terz above the prim-guitar) had, in exactly Bortolazzi´s period(!), become very popular.
Especially in pure instrumental music and - even worse for our beloved instrument - in the combination where we like the Cremonese and Milanese mandolin best: in combination with Cembalo and/or Pianoforte (and to a lesser extend in combination with prim guitar).

The terz-guitar was especially loved in Vienna where would remain popular until the 1850s!


But this all had nothing to do with the manner of how the mandolins were played in Vienna. Either finger-style or plectrum style. In fact it would have been in favour of the Milanese mandolin and popularised the finger-stile technique!

It had to do with the decline of the mandolin´s popularity in general.

Best,

Alex ©

PS. I knew you were refering to your Lombardian Monzino mandolin. But you know me; I like to keep the different types apart from eachother, so I felt I had to respond.

Please go on - or start - on that instrument studying my fingerings for the left-hand and look every now and then to my right-hand indications in the van Beethoven. Perhaps don´t tremolo... # # # and than... # # # ## # maybe... # # # # # # # # it´s only one stap away... # # #only practise it finger-style on a Sunday morning...

Since the trenght of teaching lays in repeating: p = thumb, i - index, m - middle finger.

Have fun.

[RSW]

Alex, it sounds absolutely ridiculous in my hands (fingerstyle), I have large fingers and it will never happen on the mandolino. This is for you and Eric and others of this persuasion or handset. I'll use a plectrum and make the most of it. Anyway, as far as Beethoven goes, I also don't hear this music so much specifically instrumental. When I look at the notes (without instrument), I really don't imagine a specific instrument or even an instrument producing a certain flavor of sound. For me, it comes closest with the equipment we used for the recording, but maybe the Cremonese at some future date. Again, my complaint of the neapolitan Vinaccia instrument is that it is tiring to tune and keep in tune compared to the milanese instrument of the same period. The headstock/peg system was really quite inferior to the mechanical tuners or a system with an open two sided peg support.

[Alex Timmerman]

In that case Richard, I think you´ll be surprised about the left-hand possibilities on the single gut-strings of the Cremonese mandolin (or of a milanese type) and it´s volume.
It has of course still pegs to tune with, but since it´s headstock is of the scroll-type with pegs lateral placed - similar to that of the violin - it will give even less problems.


It think would also be great to hear the Hummel and Neuling Sonatas etc. etc. on such a type in your hands!


Best,

Alex

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

Appologies if I misunderstood the tone and direction of your earlier post (it would be much easier if we could all just get together over a few beers rather than this infernal typing).

The key question here is what instrument does the evidence support specifically in late 18th-century Vienna. Alex has suggested lots of circumstantial evidence for the single-strung gut types (back where this discussion started) along with the flow of musicians between northern Italy and Vienna and I'm certainly in no position to refute or confirm these arguments one way or the other.

I agree with your assertion that the guitar eventually became *the* finger-style instrument and Alex's point about terz guitars is a good one too. As you point out, this is where the last thing that resembled a lute finally died as well (mandora)... for art music at least... after over 300 years of lute history. I like your statement quote: "its always the guitar!" LOL! Just remember... the violin has blood on its hands too... it killed off the entire viol family (news at 11 :-)).

I'm not saying that finger-style is an easy conversion for those of us who grew up with a plectrum or a bow in our hands... I just really enjoy it personally because of what it can bring to the music. You do have the right instrument for large hands, however, in the form of your Larson (Lambert) instrument.

>> Again, my complaint of the neapolitan Vinaccia
>> instrument is that it is tiring to tune and keep
>> in tune compared to the milanese [and Cremonese]
>> instrument of the same period. The headstock/peg
>> system was really quite inferior to the mechanical
>> tuners or a system with an open two sided peg support.

Another good explanation for the eventual move to single gut strings eh? :-)

All the best,

Eric

[Arto]

"it would be much easier if we could all just get together over a few beers rather than this infernal typing."

Happily you DON´T get together over a few beers but have to rely on the infernal typing! So that we others can follow this interesting conversation!

;-) Arto

[etbarbaric]

Hi all,

I'd just like to take this opportunity to wish Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart a happy 248th birthday... where ever he is. Slap some Mozart on the CD player today (or play some on your mandolin) to celebrate and get in touch with historical Viennese cultural preferences!

In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer:
"By the time Mozart was my age... he'd been dead for ten years"

That kinda puts it all in perspective for me...

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

While celebrating Mozart by listening to some of his wonderful violin concertos I fingered van Beethoven´s chord passage in his Adagio in E flatt Major for Mandolin and Harpsichord (Cembalo).

Because it can be played convincingly on any mandolin type I left out the single line melody writing of this piece.
I just have to point out however, that this part of the music lies also absolutely perfect on the Milanese fingerboard - as is the case with the one movement Sonatine in C-minor (Adagio) that has no chord passages, which I therefore also do not need to show here.


However, the chords that van Beethoven put down in the Adagio in bar 50 to 58 show again his understanding of the instrument he was writing for and an excellent example for (voice) writting for a mandolin tuned in fourths played with the fingerstyle technique.

So, here is the chord passage fingered for the Milanese mandolin. #


Greetings,

Alex ©

[RSW]

Alex, I think Beethoven would say, "Oh, I understood what?" That passage is delicious on my neapolitan mandolin too and conforms to normal passage work for this and other instruments tuned in fifths. I would never say that Beethoven himself did this expressly for some deep undertstanding of the technical devices of these instruments (as if he fooled around writing this music with a neapolitan or milanese mandolin in a learned hand). The three composers that I know personally and who wrote pieces for me (mandolin and violin) did not play these instruments or bother to ask technical questions other than concerning the range and possibly tuning. The tuning would be of importance for chordal (not broken) purposes and we often react to the outlay or voicing of the chords as a dead give away about what instrument was intended. Even there I can show you examples of Locatelli (Art of the Violin, caprice "Il laborinto") and Paganini (for violin) where the chords seem totally bizarre or almost unplayable (like maybe the violin should have a 5th string) yet it is music written for the violin (fortunately for this instrument, there isn't much confusion what violin means). I am happy though that the music is comfortable to play on instruments tuned in 4ths (fingerstyle) as well as those tuned in 5ths (plectrum or bow).

[etbarbaric]

Thanks very much Alex for this. I would only offer a couple of small changes to your left hand fingerings in a couple of spots:

- In the second half of bar-4, I would use perhaps 2-1-4 on d, b-flat, a-flat and then 3-1-4 on e-flat, b-flat, g.

- and instead of the barre in the first half of measure 6 I might use 1-2-4 on the c, g, and e-flat respectively.

Both of these changes are doable, even on my large 6-course mandolino and This keeps the upper two notes on adjacent strings which seems more natural and consistent since it keeps the string spacing the same for the right hand.

Also, though it might be interesting to vary fingering (which may be why you did it), I would likely just keep bars 7 and 8 with the same fingering since the notes don't change.

OK... I finally have the Andante marked up... let see if I can figure out how to make the message board work...

Eric

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

In this case I think I have to go with the instrument in fourths. While this (decidely "delicious") passage is certainly playable on the tuning in fifths, I have always had my doubts. Yes, it is playable, but it requires jumping from third (maybe second) position to half-position, then back to an uncomfortable two-string third-finger barre with the fourth finger thrown in for good measure (c, g, e-flat). It take practice and good technique to make these transitions smooth. Perhaps your larger hands give you and advantage here where my stubby little fingers leave me wanting.

This is one of the spots that I found *much* easier on the Cremonese instrument due to the single strings and close spacing. Nonetheless, I find it much more *convincing* on the tuning in fourths... even after only a couple quick read-throughs.

Eric

[etbarbaric]

OK, here is my marked up version of the Andante (from the Andante and Variations). I chose this particular piece for a couple of reasons. First, its very simple. Second, I have always found this little piece unrewarding and trivial, both to listen to as well as to play (on the tuning in fifths).

In short, I now find this piece wonderful and charming. I will try to explain why:

- I chose a fingering with lots of open strings and lots of arpeggiations that cross from string to string. This approach is very effective on the mandolino/Milanese tuning since individual notes continue to ring on. This approach is a key aspect to "projection" with finger-style technique for this instrument.

- Notice how the identical dotted figures at the end of the first full bar and the end of the third full bar get *exactly* the same fingering, just on different courses (around a, and d'). The "+" sign here indicates a left-hand (first-finger) pull-off for the a, and d' respectively.... very easy to do, and it seems to fit the music nicely

- Most of the little turns and graces, and many of the critical dotted rythms work out nicely so that they ring across two strings... very effective, and again, very good for projection.

- In some cases I chose to finger notes on lower strings (usually an "a" with the fourth finger) rather than play higher open strings where there were opportunities for arpeggiation. This avoids pre-mature damping and lets all of the tones ring on nicely.

- As with Alex's other multi-voiced examples, bar-7 is a gem. I've scribbled on it here.. hopefully you can see what is going on. The ability to let each voice ring on independently changes this passage completely for me.

Yes, this is a simple example. But I would argue that even here a strong case can be made for the tuning in fourths. If this music turns out to be written for this tuning, it is indeed an example of very effective (not just easy) writing for the mandolino/Milanese mandolin and played with the right-hand fingers.

I'm out of time for now... I have Variation 4 marked up and I can post that too if there's interest...

Eric

[RSW]

Sorry Eric that you have trouble with this passage, you should have persisted a bit longer with studying it. I don't use any stretches, so my big hand has no advantage being able to finger these chords. What Beethoven writes is really quite simple compared to the demands of Bach in his sonatas and partitas, Locatelli, Tartini and so many violin oriented composers. I don't find the double strings an issue either in this case but my mandolin is very well set up so perhaps this might be your cause of discomfort. Then again, you play so many different instruments, the milanese with 2 extra strings to provide more open string options would be tempting to facilitate playing notes in general. #With this example from the e-flat adagio ma non troppo, the broken chord section is perfect for a 3 note #glilde stroke in every chord, like a bow slur or conforms to so many other similar passages in the string literature written by Beethoven. The 1st to 3rd position shift isn't that difficult and I am sure you must be exaggerating your complaints. I have somewhat individual fingerings for the half position chords but I actually like very much the shift with barred C-G (g and d strings) in the 3rd position and return to first position. If done as legato as possible, it creates a nice expressive effect.

I still do not see 'proof' for the milanese mandolin when looking at Beethoven's composing process, his intentions or even what instrument might have tasted these pieces first. I understand all of the arguments, but will it stand in court? Hello Plami, you out there?

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

>> Sorry Eric that you have trouble with this passage,
>> you should have persisted a bit longer with studying it.

Thanks for that advice. I said earlier, that the passage in question (from the Adagio) is playable on the instrument tuned in fifths but that it required practice to make it smooth... and I have always had my doubts about it. I'm glad this comes naturally for you. In response I guess I would suggest that perhaps you should persist with finger-style technique on the mandolino! :-)

I have agreed with you that many of the figures (and chords) in the Beethoven *appear* violin-like on the printed page, and are thus playable on mandolins tuned in fifths. I just wonder if this *appearance* has caused the mandolin community to miss the opportunity to explore other historically-justifiable and attractive options.

I don't think anyone here has claimed hard proof for the tuning in fourths. However, the requisite proof for the instrument in fifths is also missing. I for one am more and more convinced of intent for the tuning in fourths, played with the fingers. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion.

Eric

ps - I re-read your last note and I agree with most of what you say about glide-strokes, shifts from third to first positions, etc. I'll only point out that Alex's fingerings for this passage on the Milanese instrument require no shifts whatsoever.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Eric,

Just back from the music academy , will have coffee first and than go through your fingering ideas on mine of the Adagio.


Till later,

Alex

[RSW]

Ah Eric, but I like shifts... they are the heart of portamento. #I wish I had one more life available to pursue fingerstyle but this is impossible given that I hardly have time now to practice my bread and butter instruments. I will get involved with the Cremonese mandolin and continue the milanese alla "Hoffmann". #The whole reason I've pursued this topic with you and Alex is not to disuade you (others) from playing Beethoven's pieces on the instrument tuned in fourths with fingertip plucking but to challenge your bias based on the written notes (music) themselves. It isn't difficult at all to put comfortable fingerings in for the milanese mandolin, again... you have 6 strings to choose from. However, to shift or not to shift is not just an equation of which solution is the easiest (for players to avoid shifting). #Beethoven was not someone who would have been happy with being tied to a tabulature approach to any instrument. He never looked for the easy way out in any other piece so why would he suddently be so concerned about the particular 'playability' for the milanese mandolin (assuming that they were the only mandolins used in Prague or Vienna). This argument (the predominance of milanese mandolins) would be the only one that I would warm too and which I would like to know more about. The musical analysis is of limited interest to the argument of which instrument Beethoven intended and even which instrument would best serve this music (much too subjective to even begin to discuss). I am sure if one where to do some sort of statistical analysis of Beethoven's compositions up until that point (1796), you would find nothing to support one mandolin over another over another instrument (like the violin or another keyboard). The only thing one can remark is that these pieces are written with respect to the range employed by either type of mandolin. The rest are just a marvelous bouquet of notes that allow for a wide range of interpretations (and instruments).

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello again,

Eric, I like your fingering of the second half of bar-4, using 2-1-4 on d, b-flat, a-flat and of the following bar, the 3-1-4 on e-flat, b-flat, g. Especially because of the idea behind it; to have the right-hand fingers as long as possible playing on adjacent strings. Very nice and good thinking!

I made my choice of fingering of these bars because of my concerne of the quality of sound which is better (more sustain) on the first string of course. But yours work great as well! I very much like this possibility you gave to avoid the barre in measure 6, thanks!

In measure 7, I start off with an open 6th string and have enough time to place 2 on d and than 1 the b note. For me this works very nice on my tiny original Milanese, while if I have to place 4 before the 3rd fret right after finger 2 and 1 in measure 6 it all does feel a bit pressed and to tight up. But I do see your point because it enables the un-occupied finger 3 to fall down in measure 7 on the d note through which the (your) fingering stays the same in measure 7 and 8.

There was also a 2nd reason why I fingered measure 7 with 2 and 1 (pivoting from 3) and than changing to 3 and 2: changing a pattern means ´take care/watch out´-. Here van Beethoven changes the pattern of chord notes (low-middle-high-middle-low-middle) changes in: low-middle-high-middle-middle-high through which also the right-hand finger movement is interrupted.
For 10 bars it had been p-i-m-i-p-i and now the pattern switches over to p-i-m-i-p-m. Therefore I keep the right-hand movement going on as long as possible and am able to concentrate (more) on the (sudden) changings in the notes and right-hand fingers.


I like this brain activity while studying a piece, but am well aware that this is quite a personal approach. And of course this is not a difficult fast piece, but even than I like to work it out in this way.
Also I like your finger possiblity explanations and because fingerings are essential (and not only here in the van Beethoven discussion) I just thought to give you a thorough explanation of the way I think and deal with fingerings.


Many greetings,

Alex

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

>> The whole reason I've pursued this topic with you and
>> Alex is not to disuade you (others) from playing
>> Beethoven's pieces on the instrument tuned
>> in fourths with fingertip plucking

Nor is it my intent to disuade you from the (clearly majority opinion) to play them on the Neapolitan instrument

>> but to challenge your bias based on the written notes
>> (music) themselves.

OK, I agree. I will grant you that finding musical "evidence" is a path fraught with danger and too easily corrupted by one's own biases, techniques or ignorance of the same. A case built solely on musical notes would be hard to defend. This is why I (like you, I think) find Alex's circumstantial evidence to be some of the most compelling points made in this discussion, both his descriptions of surviving instruments as well as geographical ties with northern (rather than southern) Italy. If we accept this circumstantial evidence and are to draw conclusions from it, everthing else must fit together and thus the musical case must be explored. There is no point, for instance, in persuing a Milanese approach for Leone's music... as there is no circumstantial case to be made.

On the other hand, the written notes (and the music we derive from them) are ultimately what this is all about and we shouldn't just ignore interesting things that we find if they fit the circumstances. We can make suppositions based on what Beethoven or other violin composers did in other pieces but in these written notes we have Beethoven's own word on the mandolin (and we're very lucky to have it). We are left to make what we can of this evidence, non-specific as it may be. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that Beethoven simply wrote notes without a care for what instrument they were played on.

>> He never looked for the easy way out in any other
>> piece so why would he suddently be so concerned about
>> the particular 'playability' for the
>> milanese mandolin (assuming that they were the only
>> mandolins used in Prague or Vienna).

If you're suggesting that Beethoven would likely be uncompromising in the music he wrote for M. Clary and without care for the specific intended instrument (or player), then I suppose our opinions do differ. Writing for a virtoso is one thing but this strikes me as a poor strategy as a composer, or especially as the suitor of the intended recipient (as we presume was the case). And I'm not arguing for ease necessarily... I'm arguing for effective use of the instrument... Even assuming the Milanese instrument there are still hard/difficult passages... but in my opinion they are rewarded by the effectiveness I see elsewhere in the music. This is also your point for the Neapolitan instrument, I believe.

I am certainly not without bias, I was a violinist first and my first exposure to playing and performing these pieces was over 20 years ago on the Neapolitan instrument. As recently as a few weeks ago as I was still able to convince myself that these works were intended for the tuning in fifths based on the superficial appearance of chord shapes. It is my bias as a violinist and a player of the tuning in fifths that is stronger... something I am now trying to see past.

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Eric,

As for your finger-style quarter tuned mandolin version of the Andante and Variations I am of course with you. I only don´t use open strings so often as you do. This because my Milanese mandolin is entirely strung with gut and vibrato (yet another advantage over metal strung types) on it in the melody-line is just fantastic!

At the moment I am studying the Andante and Variations to choose which of the left- and right-hand fingerings I have made, work best. But already now I feel that the notes fall best on the Milanese mandolin. #


That it fits this type so well is of course no coincidence at all!



So, let the other party for once come up with why they play it on mandolins tuned in fifths!

And hopefully with something else than that "these mandolins are louder and/or project better" etc. etc.

If no proof, it´ll better be real arguments!


Best,

Alex.

[billkilpatrick]

i haven't read through the 14 pages devoted to the subject of historical mandolins but i'd like to know if there's anyone else out there who views the charango as a medieval instrument that's finally (sob!) come home to europe after a protracted (500-years or so) leave of absence in the new world.

[etbarbaric]

I just got together with my duo partner (a guitarist) and we read through some things.

- Leonard von Call - Hmmm... easy but not effective!
- Giovanni Hoffman - A little harder.. but much better music
- LVB - Ahh!!

Blatant opinions of course, but Beethoven is indeed something special.

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Eric, if only I had a vocabulary and writting ease in English of your standard!


Hello Richard,

I have no ´bias´ at all in the sence that I know best on which Mandolin type these works can be played best.

What I do know about the mandolin and it´s history is based on my research over the last 25 years.
I also know that I look to things concerning the mandolin in practically all possible ways and angles. Often these are views that are never even seen and never investigated before, views also that when examined reveal unknown aspects on several matters concerning the mandolin.
That I am able to do so - as one of very view - is because I found yet an other key to the hidden sides of the history of our instrument, namely: the surviving instruments of the past.

The knowledge, gained through finding and examining plucked instruments in musical instrument collections - both public and private all over Europe - combined with #background information on cultural and historical facts of a particular period and place, have given me more insight in the devellopment of the mandolin.

And sometimes this, when shared with for instance you and the people of this wonderful board, brings us closer - like in the van Beethoven mandolin music - to at least a more true and authentic approach of a matter than there was before.

That´s what I like!


So really, no ´bias´.
See my writing as a kind of counterweight to all those who were - and still are - spreading falsehoods for facts...



Greetings,


Alex.