Embellishing Songs

[PhillipeTaylor]

I started playing about a year ago, and I'm having a great time, you guys have helped me with some playing advice that helped. I'm trying to get to a new arc and having some trouble. I've played with some basic ways to embellish songs, drones, hammer ons, pull-offs, simple stuff, but I'm having difficulty with something I see people doing and really want to bring into my technique. I know some theory, enough to figure out progressions, keys, how to change keys, how to do some basic improvisation and stay in key, and can derive the notes in a chord from the key. Maybe that's not enough to figure out the solution I'm looking for, and maybe it is, and I just don't know how to apply it. Anway, here's the problem:

I want to embellish simple picking melodies on a whole note/half note/quarter note, depending on if it's the longer note in the arrangement by replacing the note with a chord that still sounds like the note in the melody. How do I derive the "right" chord?

Also, I want to figure out how to add a strumming chord underneith the melody and still play the melody over it, but I'm in the same jam with this issue, because I don't know how to derive the root notes I should be holding down while I finger out the melody.

I'm right at the point where I can start to do this physically, but I can't figure out HOW to derive it on my own... so frustrating!

I hope that makes some sense!

Thanks!

[JeffD]

The way I approach this is from the other side. I learn the chords for the tune, in addition to learning the melody. Then, for every note in the tune, I know what chord is behind it.

The problem is that any given note could be any number of chords depending on the tune, where in the tune, and the purpose of the note in the tune. And the right chord might not even contain the note in question.

But knowing the chords of the tune, I know what chord goes everywhere, regardless of what note is being played there.

I hope I have answered the right question.

[Pete Martin]

You are probably thinking of double stops where the melody is very recognizable. The PDF book I wrote called "Bluegrass Mandolin: Creating and Using Double Stops" covers this extensively. You can download it free here:

http://www.petimarpress.com/product/...-double-stops/

[PhillipeTaylor]

Thanks for the suggestions.

And thanks for the offer and the material!

Actually, I'm thinking formal chord - 3 notes or more. Here's a guy who derived various chords for Si Bheag Si Mhor on mandolin. There are some double stops in there, an open A over a G, a few times, but the chords fit melodically, but I don't THINK they fit the notes in the melody in some places - maybe I'm reading it wrong. Anyway, it's a good example of what I'm talking about with chords to replace notes in a melody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDzJb-wZtKM

He has sheet music provided. He's probably here on the cafe, so I hope he's flattered if so, awesome rendition, and a good example for me to strive towards!

p

[PhillipeTaylor]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about with the strumming, he may be doing double stops, but it doesn't sound like it to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol4B7c63-ZE

[JeffD]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about with the strumming, he may be doing double stops, but it doesn't sound like it to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol4B7c63-ZE

That is great stuff.

Being able to play like that demonstrates he knows the chords of the tune.

The way to get there, however, is probably not as straight forward as I indicated above. The more likely path is years of trial and error, years of listening to others play the tune, years of trying out the open strings near the note you are playing, trying out different chords and not doing it again if it sounds bad. Developing an intuition for the music and for the tunes.

Nothing that comes easily. At least it didn't for me.

[PhillipeTaylor]

Yeah, his level is definately a LONG TERM goal!

Actually, it does sound like he has a lot of double stop in there, he just does what I'm talking about, too.

Darn! I was hoping there was some "Theory Algebra" I could do to get the right answers ;-)!

[JeffD]

There are not a lot of short cuts, though there is an algebra to it that repays the effort to learn it.

Algebra plus experience and tons of practice will get you there.

It takes about ten years to sound like you have been playing for ten years.

Enjoy the ride. Enjoy the frustration that propels you forward. Enjoy the momentum created by small gains. Enjoy the aha moments that come when you figure something out that changes everything. Enjoy the hard won competence you achieve. Enjoy the capability you have at each point in the journey. Enjoy helping the newbies that inevitably will be looking to you for advice.

[Pepe]

In the Si Bheag Si Mhor example, he's making extensive use of the harmonized scale that he's in. In other words he's not just using the basic chords you'd use to back up the tune, he's using most of the chords in the key. You'll have to research and study how to harmonize a scale - it's good stuff and the theory isn't that hard. If your fretboard savvy is pretty good, you won't have much trouble applying what you learn. If it's mostly a black space w/white dots & speed bumps, you'll have to spend some time getting to know the neighborhood. He's also using ornamental cross-picking within chords to fill out longer duration melody notes.

In the 2nd example, he's using a lot of drones - mostly open strings but some fretted. He also has a little bit of contrapuntal action going on, reminiscent of what a good bouzouki or DADGAD guitarist would do for backup - really nice!

I'd say you're looking for inspiration in all the right places!

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Phillipe,
There are some great suggestions on this thread. I think a combination of all of them is always a balanced way to go. For songs that you can find the chords to, JeffD has it right: learn the chords, and then try to make an arrangement with those chords under the melody to begin with. From there you can start making modifications by substituting related chords in the key, and use your ear to hear how it sounds.

When you are trying to develop your own chords to a melody, then Pepe's suggestion is a good one: learn the harmonized scale. This is a very useful thing for playing chord melody, because it gives you a restricted palette of chords to pick from when you are first starting out. A harmonized scale can be on 2, 3, or 4 strings. Take a major scale. First, what are the chords that are formed on each note of the scale, in this major key?

On the root, fourth, and fifth notes, it's major chords. (I.e. in D Major, the D G and A notes are the roots to major chords)
On the second, third and sixth notes, it's minor chords (E, F# and B minors)
The seventh scale note supports a diminished chord.

In order then, you get Dmaj, Emin, F#min, Gmaj, Amaj, Bmin, C#dim, Dmaj

For a D major scale starting on the 5th fret A string and going up to 10th fret E string, you could harmonize as follows:
245x (Dmaj chord)
457x (Em)
679x (F#m)
x023 (G)
x245 (A)
x457 (Bm)
x579 (C#dim)
x79(10) (D)

Now you can figure out the same thing, but making each scale note the third of the chord, rather than the root of the chord. So for the D note, D is the third of B minor. E is the third of C#diminished, and etc.

The same D scale harmonized with the scale as the chord-thirds:
445x (Bm)
657x (C#dim)
x002 (D)
x223 (Em)
x445 (F#m)
x557 (G)
x779 (A)
x99(10) (Bm)

Now using the scale notes as the fifths of the chords:
455x (G)
677x (A)
x022 (Bm)
x243 (C#dim)
x455 (D)
x577 (Em)
x799 (F#m)
x9(10)(10) (G)

Now these all sound kind of strange played in a row, because the chords are moving in parallel, just sliding along with the scale. So once you are comfortable with that, you can mix and match from lists to get more interesting progressions.

If you want to stick to the major chords, you could do (still on the same scale):

455x G
677x A
x002 D
x023 G
x245 A
x557 G
x779 A
x79(10) D

Another possibility using minor chords as well:

445x Bm
677x A
x002 D
x023 G
x445 F#m
x457 Bm
x779 A
x79(10) D

A good exercise, if you are into exercises:
Play all three chords for each scale note in various orders before moving to the next scale note:
245x 455x 445x 455x 245x 445x...
457x 657x 457x 677x 657x...
etc.

Once you start playing with these and can reach quickly for the different possibilities, you will start to see how you can add these chords to the important melody notes in a song. On Si Bheag, the first main melody note is an F#. x002 (D) is the obvious choice since this established the key of D. However, no reason why you couldn't use x022 (Bm) or even 679x (F#m) to try something different. The key component in all of this is to use your ear as you play them.

D major is nice because the open strings keep things simple. Eventually, though, you might want to try to develop this harmonized scale in closed position only. You can still do this in D. Just take any of the chords with open strings and put them elsewhere. For example, x002 can be 779x, x023 can be played 79(10)x instead. This way, when you move to another key, you won't be anchored to open strings.

There are certainly other chord shapes besides these: In Si Bheag, for the melody note of E, 2200 is used instead of 677x (probably out of laziness ). And you can also play chords that don't include the melody note in them, of course. But this here could certainly get you started. Of course, you might also need to extend the scales up and down from the octave I showed, but the same idea applies, since the shapes repeat.

Hope this helps!

Cheers
MRT

[PhillipeTaylor]

In the Si Bheag Si Mhor example, he's making extensive use of the harmonized scale that he's in. In other words he's not just using the basic chords you'd use to back up the tune, he's using most of the chords in the key. You'll have to research and study how to harmonize a scale - it's good stuff and the theory isn't that hard. If your fretboard savvy is pretty good, you won't have much trouble applying what you learn. If it's mostly a black space w/white dots & speed bumps, you'll have to spend some time getting to know the neighborhood. He's also using ornamental cross-picking within chords to fill out longer duration melody notes.

In the 2nd example, he's using a lot of drones - mostly open strings but some fretted. He also has a little bit of contrapuntal action going on, reminiscent of what a good bouzouki or DADGAD guitarist would do for backup - really nice!

I'd say you're looking for inspiration in all the right places!

Wow, thanks for the clarification! Thank you, that gives me some excellent direction on where to focus my practice!

[PhillipeTaylor]

Phillipe,


Hope this helps!

Cheers
MRT

Double WOW! You've outlined my practice regimine for the next few months at least! Thank you! You two have given me exactly the guidance I was looking for to target my way over this hurdle! Thank you so much!

Mandolin Cafe is so awesome!

p

[grandomando]

From your examples I assume that you want to play Irish music -- great! What I have found so far is that the harmony is a little different; you would have to learn to harmonize not only the major scale, but also the minor, but equally importantly Dorian and Mixolydian scales to use them to any kind of an advantage. Easiest way: learn standard progressions in common keys. These truly entail nothing more than two or three chords each. Rehearse them in the privacy of your home to slow recordings. Job done. You've got the basis now!

But here's what I really think: I do not believe for a second those guys in those videos know -- in a theoretical, analytical manner -- what exactly they're playing. I know I don't completely know the chords I use (colour tones, etc.) because I arrived at them through experimentation on the fingerboard. I could analyze them if I wanted to. Andy Irvine? I daresay he's using the same method: experiment, experiment, experiment. On the fingerboard. Doesn't matter if you're the greatest jazz pianist the world has seen, if you want to learn to accompany Irish tunes on the mando, your most important knowledge is (1) the genre and its typical tricks and devices, harmonic and otherwise, and (2) the fingerboard! This means, in essence, that you like listening to the music (and therefore do it a lot) and sit down to just muck about on the mandolin for a few hours.

Listen, experiment, repeat. Like a child with a new toy. You'll get there faster. And if you remove your "theory hat" for just a few days, you are free to explore what things emerge from the fingerboard: open ringing tones, sliding up to make a sparkly upper octave sounds, bass lines, you name it. Harmony will never suggest those things to you. Those are the mandolinistic things that make you sound like not just anyone, but a really great mandolin player! In a couple week's time I guarantee you you will have a harmonized version of a tune you like that you are completely free to improve later on if you so wish.

And then you can go back to your theory and understand why it sounds good. Analytically speaking, what I try to do more than anything is to not go full-on fancy pants the first time round I play a tune. And that's hard, because I'd like to show off my mad skillz, ya know but I try to keep it innocent and sweet-sounding. The second time around I usually substitute chords more, and the third time I might actually go back to simpler harmony to achieve a larger valume through power chords and open strings. But it really depends on the tune. Slow tunes really benefit from a bass line. Anything that happens in between the bass line and the melody is immaterial: play what you can finger. Your options actually aren't limitless in that sense. Let the instrument guide you!

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

...experiment, experiment, experiment.

This is very true. I'll say that by experimenting, you are developing a theory of your own. Whether you end up naming it with the standard terms like major chords, harmonized scales or what not, it's clear that the good players have a very good theory of how to accompany. They can listen to a tune and hear all the possibilities. Whether they do it with letters, numbers, or fretboard patterns, colors, or whatever, there is a method to it. And these methods often overlap significantly, just might use different (or no) terminology for the same ideas. It's good to approach everything from all sides, I find. Once you start making the connections between every aspect of the playing, you essentially don't need to think about it anymore. You can think about it, but it's unnecessary for playing music, only necessary for communicating things to others.

Cheers
MRT

[PhillipeTaylor]

Believe it or not, that's something I was hearing along with all the theory advice you guys were giving also. I guess I just needed a sense of "permission" to just let my fingers play along the fretboard and see what sounds good as well as trying to use theory when I get stuck.

I'm working with a version of Si Bheng Si Mhor, stealing a lot of ideas from the guy on that first video, simply because he wrote his ideas down, and that makes them easy to steal, and playing with modifications where I don't like the chords. I don't like the sound of a couple of the chords he uses, at least when I play them, they sound a bit truncated, higher pitch than I'd like, and I loose track of the melody if I try all the cross picking ornamentation he uses, but that's probably an ability issue.

I'm also experimenting with a version of Daniel by Elton John, so even though I'm focusing on Celtic music right now, that's a song I'm familiar with enough to play around with stuff, and some ideas are coming to me. Not really with changing the chords, but with strumming patterns and double-stops and some littlel licks to bring the melody into the song.

I'm getting to a transition point in my practice. I'm just now STARTING to learn how the mandolin is SUPPOSED to sound and working with that, instead of trying to make the mandolin sound more like a guitar. I never learned how to play guitar, but I jammed with a lot of really competent guitar players, one of whom could do all his cool rock songs on a mandolin and make it sound just as cool. He and the other guitar people gave me a lot of helpful advice, but they also gave me a lot of crappy advice, that just made me keep trying to compensate for the mandolin sound, rather than DISCOVER, and WORK WITH the mandolin sound... I don't know if that makes any sense, but I want to stay away from guitars, at least for a while and stick with Mandolin ideas...

[PhillipeTaylor]

That's also why I'm exploring the Celtic music right now... it really seems to DEPEND upon a mandolin sounding like a mandolin, so I really have to learn to bring that out... again, I hope I'm being clear...

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I don't like the sound of a couple of the chords he uses, at least when I play them, they sound a bit truncated, higher pitch than I'd like

Yes, one of the challenges of playing that chord-melody style up the neck is letting the chords ring while playing the melody. This often involves interesting fingerings and/or cross picking to keep the sound going as long as desired. As you move into songs in keys that don't have the nice open strings for most of the chords, it becomes more necessary to develop this closed position style. Definitely a good challenge!

Cheers
MRT

[mandolinlee]

Hi Phillipe Taylor -

I think the guy, Mark Robertson-Tessi that gave you so much good instruction and chords is also the guy playing Si Bheag Si Mhor on the you tube video.

Regards
Lee

[PhillipeTaylor]

Yeah, I noticed that, but I wasn't going to out him unless he outed himself... I was am still very grateful for the help, both for writing down the music, then giving me the explicit guidance help me work towards it.

What was cool, was that he got exactly what I was asking too, he didn't just tell me how to play the notes he wrote down, he guided me in learning to figure out how to do what he did to develop the piece. In this way, not only do I have the guidance to play what he played, but to develop my own version of it, at whatever ability I'm at, which was what I was looking for. Okay, so maybe I have a little bit of a mandolin player man-crush, but I'm not going all stalker, or anything!

Basically, what I'm doing is adding ideas on the paper when I can. I started by just adding a few chords, removing a finger on the x544 to x504 because it didn't sound right how I was playing it... it sounds right on the video the way he plays everything, but... you know how it is... I suck in comparison, so I have to figure out a way to play some of those ideas to pull it off a step at a time so it sounds at least presentable whatever stage I'm at. Also, in this way I am learning several different versions of the tune matching my ability development. Also, I'm not trying to copy or learn the music from the page exactly as written, really, I'm trying to develop from the base tune itself, stealing ideas when they make sense to me, and when I can pull them off.

I'm not stealing your/his cross picking because I loose track of the melody, AND because I just can't get my fingers over there in tempo... at least not at this point. I've gotten around to adding a couple of the cross picking ideas, the first few bars, because they make sense, I "get" why he put them there, and I'm saying, "oh, what a cool idea" and so I steal it, but something about that A chord on the lower frets doesn't sound right when I play it either, so I'm trying 240x instead. I'm sure his idea will work better, but since I don't "get it" yet, I'm playing around with other ideas until I get to the understanding he has. Sorry, not thinking about the names of the chords yet, mostly their sounds, per advice. Also, I'm skipping the opening and closing with the higher chords, because that's just whole other thing to work on, and I'll get to that when I get to it... again I'm working from the basic tune and building ideas, using the advice above as well as the sheet music in tandem so I can understand the why of each idea from my own play... if I just copy, I'm going to learn to copy... but if I experiment and come to understand why, I figure I'll learn more about how to embellish other tunes.

Eventually, I'll probably get around to playing what Mark wrote down, but I don't just want to copy, I want to learn from the advice he gave about how to play with it, so that when I get to the point that I CAN copy him exactly, I've learned a little bit of how he got there as well.

Hope that makes sense, and properly portrays my respect and appreciation!

p

[JeffD]

My experience with traditional Celtic music is different from other western music in that the tune is more fixed and the backing, chords, double stops, harmonies, are much more variable. For example in bluegrass you keep the chords the same (for the most part), and improvise the melody, while in IT you keep the melody (with some decoration sure, but no essential changes), and can improvise (within reason) the chords. Much more freedom with the chords in IT.

The other thing I keep in mind is to never compare what I can do on the spot spur of the moment in real time at the jam with what someone else has prepared in the woodshed for months or years. A prepared set piece can sound spontaneous, and it can be a real moral crusher to think "I can't come up with anything like that at a jam". Well in many cases it wasn't "come up with" at a jam, but composed and worked out at home. Which you can do too. (And when you are at the jam and you whip something off like that, please be gracious to let the newbie know that contrary to how it may look, you didn't just come up with it that instant.)

[PhillipeTaylor]

You know, I hadnt thought of that. Of course, I dont know much about bluegrass yet, so thats no suprise.

I am noticing that about Celtic tunes, though, so Im expanding the tunes I know and having a great time with it. Theres something satisfying about memorizing a simple, catchy tune, even if its not perfect and clean yet.

[greg_tsam]

Yeah, I noticed that, but I wasn't going to out him unless he outed himself...
p

That's very tactful of you but Mark is a great talent. I would've outed him had I known. Sorry, Mark. Does that mean I'm not cool?

[PhillipeTaylor]

I figured it out when he digged on himself...

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

OK, this thread is officially embarrassing. I was just trying to help!

Cheers
MRT

[PhillipeTaylor]

Sorry... thanks for the help... just trying to be funny