Am I Cynical or Maybe On To Something About Camps?

[DataNick]

I get the whole thing about instructional camps; God knows I really!, really!, really! want to go to Mike Compton's Monroe Mandolin Camp! That being said, I just don't see myself attending the majority of the "Gatherings" and "Camps" I see advertised. Maybe I'm cynical, but to me, and at my level of playing (Intermediate) it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on at the price of "paying" for their vacation. If the camp was one that was out of my area of experience/proficiency (like the Monroe Camp) then yeah, I get it. But I just can't get motivated to shell out $500-1000 for a 3-5 day excursion when I can practice my 3-4 hrs a day at home, and go to as many festivals as I can. I've learned more at jams & festivals by watching, jamming, and asking questions of better players...and it only cost me a festival ticket or the obligatory jam fee!

So I submit myself to be educated/corrected, but I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors, etc!

[mandroid]

Too much interstate travel for my cashflow.. But Im happy to see other people when they come to town.

Wednesdays at the Moose Lodge..
[Lower Columbia River, within sight of the Maritime Museum.]

Tenor Guitar Gathering is repeating for another year in June..

Just moving into a fixer -upper across town about Then.

[mandolirius]

I get the whole thing about instructional camps; God knows I really!, really!, really! want to go to Mike Compton's Monroe Mandolin Camp! That being said, I just don't see myself attending the majority of the "Gatherings" and "Camps" I see advertised. Maybe I'm cynical, but to me, and at my level of playing (Intermediate) it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on at the price of "paying" for their vacation. If the camp was one that was out of my area of experience/proficiency (like the Monroe Camp) then yeah, I get it. But I just can't get motivated to shell out $500-1000 for a 3-5 day excursion when I can practice my 3-4 hrs a day at home, and go to as many festivals as I can. I've learned more at jams & festivals by watching, jamming, and asking questions of better players...and it only cost me a festival ticket or the obligatory jam fee!

So I submit myself to be educated/corrected, but I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors, etc!

I don't know. You seem pretty set in your opinions and have expressed them vigorously. Camps are expensive and it can be hard to justify them on a "dollar per unit of instruction" basis or however you want to put it. The thing about camps is they provide a different kind of musical experience. Since you're likely to be with a hundred or more people who share your musical passion, you'll probably meet some pretty cool folks. Also, a lot of people just like the idea that they don't have to do a damn thing for however long the camp is. Food and entertainment covered. Sit back and relax, soak up the atmosphere, have some conversations with interesting people, jam your face off....these are the non-instructional experiences a camp can offer but, as I mentioned, something is of value only if the purchaser believes it is.

[Scott Tichenor]

You're cynical.

And... what's the word for it...

Oh, you only wish to hear from those that agree with you. Sorry, you didn't want to hear that. I'll stop there.

[DataNick]

I don't know. You seem pretty set in your opinions and have expressed them vigorously. Camps are expensive and it can be hard to justify them on a "dollar per unit of instruction" basis or however you want to put it. The thing about camps is they provide a different kind of musical experience. Since you're likely to be with a hundred or more people who share your musical passion, you'll probably meet some pretty cool folks. Also, a lot of people just like the idea that they don't have to do a damn thing for however long the camp is. Food and entertainment covered. Sit back and relax, soak up the atmosphere, have some conversations with interesting people, jam your face off....these are the non-instructional experiences a camp can offer but, as I mentioned, something is of value only if the purchaser believes it is.

Wow! never thought I come across as "set" in my opinions, but if that's the perception, who am I to argue!
I appreciate the feedback.
Anyway, like to think I'm teachable and didn't consider the viewpoints you expressed here. I guess from the perspective of kinda like a vacation (the non-instructional experiences), I get it! And like I said, I'll repeat; I really! really! really! want to go to the Monroe Camp; but for the instructional purposes I must confess!

[DataNick]

You're cynical.

And... what's the word for it... wishing to appear you're full of yourself I'd say.

Oh, you didn't want to hear that. Sorry. I'll stop there.

Now Scott, I did say I submit myself to be educated/corrected, so any honest comment like yours is appreciated. God knows I don't want to be perceived as cynical, and worse yet, inflexible to change. I probably can be full of myself at times. The only way to get better is to face the truth, so thank you!

I sincerely appreciate your honest feedback, and I'll re-examine my perspective.
Have a good one!

[OldSausage]

I'm sure it's extremely cool to hobnob with some hero instructors, and fun to meet others who take learning mando seriously. But by the same token, I don't think you have to feel bad if you're just not that into the idea. It's probably a bit like going on cruises - some people just love cruises and go on them at every opportunity. And some people can't think of anything worse. Both kinds of people are just fine.

[JeffD]

I took a workshop a while back, at a camp, and it changed my universe. Got me going in ways I still haven't recovered from. It wasn't a matter of things to practice or motivation to practice things I already knew I should. It was a way of seeing the whole fretboard in a new way. All of a sudden things I knew before fit into a grander scheme that I could build on. It was the beginning of a revolution for me, and how I play now is light years ahead of how I was before that workshop. And this is key, I could not have gotten here through brute force practice. It was not discipline I lacked, it was about three key insights that suddenly became clear for me that changed how I saw things. I had new eyes.

If a workshop gives you a couple of revolutionary ideas, ties a couple of half understood concepts together in a new and useful way, it is well worth the money. You never know.

[allenhopkins]

I get the whole thing about instructional camps...really! want to go to Mike Compton's Monroe Mandolin Camp! That being said, I just don't see myself attending the majority of the "Gatherings" and "Camps" I see advertised. Maybe I'm cynical, but to me...it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on, at the price of "paying" for their vacation. If the camp was one that was out of my area of experience/proficiency...then yeah, I get it. But I just can't get motivated to shell out $500-1000 for a 3-5 day excursion when I can practice my 3-4 hrs a day at home, and go to as many festivals as I can. I've learned more at jams & festivals by watching, jamming, and asking questions of better players...and it only cost me a festival ticket or the obligatory jam fee!So I...I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors...

Guarantee that if you show up at any camp/weekend/workshop with that basic attitude, you won't derive a lot of benefit from it.

I attended Folk Music Week at Pinewoods Camp in MA for 23 years, but not with the specific goal of improving instrumental skills; it was more to see what was out there, meet others with similar interests, cultivate long-standing musical friendships, and expose myself (not in that way, though!) to unanticipated stimuli and experiences. At almost any camp you will have many chances to "watch, jam and ask questions" of experienced and talented players, and you may get the chance to spend hours learning from them and picking their brains (and mandolins), rather than a few minutes in a late-night festival jam.

But if you go with low expectations, ready to be disappointed -- you'll probably get what you're expecting.

[SincereCorgi]

I'm sure I haven't been to anywhere near as many mandolin workshops as most people on this board, but, based on my experience, I'd say that maybe one in five is quite good. (I am defining 'quite good' as being a situation where you are exposed to some surprising insight that allows you to improve your playing.)

The rest vary a lot, my personal favorites being: (1) the one where some middling player is traveling the country to hawk his method books and (2) the one where you pay large amounts to sit near a mandolin hero who clearly is thinking about whether he'll have time to wash his clothes before moving on to the next town, all while men with very expensive mandolins ask him about his pick grip.

The problem, of course, is that you don't know which it's going to be when you buy your ticket.

[AlanN]

I dig the workshops - daily, multi-day. Haven't been to many of the extended ones, but to sit around with a bunch of mandolin pickers trembling away, what could be better?

[Bertram Henze]

Learning only works if unexpected.

[Ron McMillan]

I get the whole thing about instructional camps; God knows I really!, really!, really! want to go to Mike Compton's Monroe Mandolin Camp! That being said, I just don't see myself attending the majority of the "Gatherings" and "Camps" I see advertised. Maybe I'm cynical, but to me, and at my level of playing (Intermediate) it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on at the price of "paying" for their vacation. If the camp was one that was out of my area of experience/proficiency (like the Monroe Camp) then yeah, I get it. But I just can't get motivated to shell out $500-1000 for a 3-5 day excursion when I can practice my 3-4 hrs a day at home, and go to as many festivals as I can. I've learned more at jams & festivals by watching, jamming, and asking questions of better players...and it only cost me a festival ticket or the obligatory jam fee!

So I submit myself to be educated/corrected, but I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors, etc!

Unless I'm mistaken, you're telling us there's no way you'd waste your time and/or money going to a type of event you've never been to before, and are therefore in no educated position to judge?

[Perry]

I've been to a bunch of camps....always have a good time. Jamming with others is where it's at. Yeah sitting at home at practicing for hours might get you further then a weekend at a camp but it's not as fun or inspiring and you can be doing that at camp too. Hearing the physical sound coming off a pro's mandolin in small room is a lesson in itself.

Enrolling in the Artistwork's Academy with Mike Marshall is by far the best bang for the buck. Personal instruction and peer evaluations. I was enrolled for quite a while but have switched my efforts to guitar lately. I recently enrolled in the Martin Taylor version and it's such a great learning platform for any isntrument.

[bmac]

I do not attend camps either, for financial, health and family reasons. But I am sure that they would be beneficial not just for the classes, which may be above or below my skill level, but for the socialization with like minded enthusiasts. Some folks learn best in class-type situations. Others do not. It is really that simple.

[lukmanohnz]

Guarantee that if you show up at any camp/weekend/workshop with that basic attitude, you won't derive a lot of benefit from it.

I attended Folk Music Week at Pinewoods Camp in MA for 23 years, but not with the specific goal of improving instrumental skills; it was more to see what was out there, meet others with similar interests, cultivate long-standing musical friendships, and expose myself (not in that way, though!) to unanticipated stimuli and experiences. At almost any camp you will have many chances to "watch, jam and ask questions" of experienced and talented players, and you may get the chance to spend hours learning from them and picking their brains (and mandolins), rather than a few minutes in a late-night festival jam.

But if you go with low expectations, ready to be disappointed -- you'll probably get what you're expecting.

I have attended one specific camp for three years in a row. It's the only camp experience I have so my perspective is limited. In those three years I: 1) took 3-day workshops from Roland White, John Reischman, and Sharon Gilchrist and gained key insights about mandolin technique from each of them; 2) saw jams and staff concerts that included some of the best pickers in the world; 3) wound up participating in a late afternoon staff jam that included Mike Witcher and watched him from a few feet away as he set his dobro on fire (metaphorically speaking, of course) several times, then had him tell me afterward that I 'did great' in the jam - which I know was him being polite and encouraging but meant the world to me anyway; 4) made many, many new friends; 5) listened in rapt attention as Bill Amatneek regaled us with stories and anecdotes about Tony Rice, David Grisman, Peter Paul & Mary, and others; 6) ditto Roland White telling stories about being on the road with Bill Monroe and reminiscing about his brother Clarence; 7) jammed with said new friends for hours, learning new songs, and having some of the greatest musical interactions and pure happiness I've ever experienced with my mandolin; 8) bought CDs of amazing music at the camp store - many which I'd have never found otherwise; 9) added three of my favorite t-shirts to my wardrobe (the t-shirts received as part of camp attendance that serve as reminders of one of my all-time favorite things in the world to do); 10) more, but I think you get my drift. YMMV.

[JonZ]

You're cynical.

And... what's the word for it...

Oh, you only wish to hear from those that agree with you. Sorry, you didn't want to hear that. I'll stop there.

Call me cynical, but this needs an "I make money promoting mandolin camps" disclaimer.

OP is correct. For most people most camps will offer little bang for the buck. Let's say there are 10 courses. What are the chances that they will all be beneficial to you with your current skills and interests? In any other circumstance you would not take lessons from a person who has no idea of your instructional needs.

OP is correct again. If you have a particular interest in a particular subject that is being targeted by a camp, you increase the chances that courses will be of value.

The exception would be kids. Mine have gone to the Marc O'Connor camp, which really takes a shot gun approach, throwing a lot of variety at you. It did help to open up the world of violin to them. Seeing other kids enjoying music that I had told them was cool made them realize that maybe I knew a few things about what is cool.

[DataNick]

Unless I'm mistaken, you're telling us there's no way you'd waste your time and/or money going to a type of event you've never been to before, and are therefore in no educated position to judge?

Thanks for the feedback...I believe I said I "submit" myself to be educated/corrected.
Still happy to hear whatever comments folks might have...I look forward to changing the negative traits I surely have and need to identify.

Have a good one!

[Jim Garber]

Some of my best lifelong experiences have been at camps and workshops. The most notable have been spending a full week with Tiny Moore (twice at Ashokan Western Week) and with Jethro Burns (Augusta Heritage Arts -- the only time he taught there). Come to think of it, another great experience was also at Augusta -- three week guitar making class with Wayne Henderson. And I have attended Carlo Aonzo's classical mandolin workshops in New York for years.

[Randi Gormley]

I kinda think I know what you asked initially, Data; a good argument to counter your feelings that the money wasn't paying for anything much and that just hanging around was a better deal. And you're right, at least for the camps that I've attended, the craic (that's Irish for good times/music/companionship/laughter) has been the draw, not necessarily the lessons that cost above and beyond room, board and sessions (jams for the non ITM types). I don't think I can give you a one, two, three argument that will stand up to "yes, but ...!" Heaven knows I can't get anybody to give me a convincing reason why a beach vacation is worth my time and very many people can't imagine anything better.

But the workshops I've attended have been worth it, above and beyond the craic. I get a sort of inner satisfaction in being part of the interior life of the camp not just a hanger-on; I can nod a greeting to other people in my classes when I pass them on the street, see them in session later on or meet them in real life (outside of camp); I can trade nods with the instructors and, when I see them out in the real world, the instructors tend to remember who I am and even smile, even if they can't remember my name; I get music/tunes I wouldn't have learned on my own (my workshops tend to be multiple days with the same instructors, not one-offs) and the expectation I'll be able to do the work without any babying, which puts me on my toes; there's a feeling of accomplishment at the end that is greater than I'd have expected just by going to whatever's playing on the front porches or back rooms.
There's a lot of shared experiences, too, among the people in the class -- all those inside jokes that are hysterical but don't translate, the shared eye-rolling over the idiot who can't keep his/her fingers off the instrument even while the instructor is talking, the shy smiles of strangers hoping to meet friendly people -- plus all the other stuff everybody else has mentioned in their posts. I've been lucky in my workshops and there's no guarantee you'll be as lucky if you decide to take the plunge, but there are reasons why people pay the money and participate in classes year by year and it's not all because they want to rub elbows and show off for big names.

[abuteague]

I am in charge of my own learning. I practice what I'm good at and I tend not to practice what I'm not so good at. Consequently, I tend not to make all that much progress.

Instructors are hit and miss. But a camp has a bunch of instructors. I've found that they can point out things I'm not good at in minutes and suggest strategies to improve. If I take their advice, I've found I do improve, more than I thought possible.

Sure, you will have to own up to your weaknesses. When they say, "play me something" and you can't because you don't have sheet music in front of you. Or Rich DelGrosso tells you it is your turn to improvise and he will back you up and you can't seem to find notes on a fretboard full of notes. Or you try to back out by saying, "my mandolin isn't that great," and Bill Walach demonstrates awesome technique on a duct-taped mandolin shaped object. It can be uncomfortable, but these instructors follow up and help you out on the path to learning by ear, memorizing tunes, improvising, getting the most out of your mandolin... because that is what they are there to do.

As gatekeeper, you get to decide how much to let outside instructors guide your playing.
At camps I've been shy and held back and I've been open and outgoing and the outgoing persona is more apt to help you learn from the camp environment.
Similarly, you can find yourself the loan Celtic enthousiast surrounded by Bluegrass aficionados, and you can go with it or shut down. I have found just going with it can be surprisingly satisfying. Bowing out has not proved to add much to my playing.

Even if I come to camp with an agenda of what I want to learn, I might come away from camp having learned something else entirely. I generally feel renewed and excited about practice again.

Know yourself. If you are not open to learning things you have avoided learning, or if you intend to observe from the back and not talk to people to "try it out," then it might well not be time to look at camps right now. Maybe a new book and DVD combo or a couple of fresh CDs of your favorite artists would be a better value. Indeed, sometimes I skip camp myself and do something else.

[GuitarDogs62]

I am planning on going to a camp next year. Here is my take on it. I want to play and play and play. The learning oppurtunities is unlimited. It just doesn't come down to the instructors and staff, but from all the tricks and tips that fellow campers have to offer. I feel the camp is what you make of it and the goals that you want to obtain and achieve. I feel the light bulb will go on in my head on certain things that I was really not all clear on. Then after the camp is over, take a few days more and plan a nice little vacation seeing the area and all the sights and things to do that it has to offer.

[John Duncan]

I have been to a few camps, and would like to offer you a perspective that I recently gained.

You will learn more about your playing from the other camp attendees. You can learn what not to play, when to play, what sets you apart from others, what others do that is desirable for you to learn, how to make music with others, just HOW IMPORTANT RHYTHM IS, and how to back people up.

Going to the 4 camps I have been to took me way outside my musical comfort zone.

I hear you on staying at home and jamming at festivals and around town. You can learn a lot that way. But, for me personally, I want to throw myself into as many unfamiliar musical situations as I can.

[JonZ]

Guitardogs62--The "camp is what you make of it" reasoning means you would gain the same benefit from any camp. Surely there are differences.

[GDAE]

it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on

This seems the fault in your reasoning to me. You assume they aren't going to notice anything that you don't already know about. What if they noticed something you hadn't even realized you could do better, and show you how to do it? It could move you up to a whole new level.