Distressed Master models

[Wilbur James]

Does anyone have any experience with the Roberts signed Models, or do you own one, I have found lots on the Derrington Models, I would just like to know your experiences with them, tone, sound, and so on, I know of a couple of them available and would like opinions before I take a long drive, and perhaps a deep plunge.

[mtucker]

Does anyone have any experience with the Roberts signed Models, or do you own one, I have found lots on the Derrington Models, I would just like to know your experiences with them, tone, sound, and so on, I know of a couple of them available and would like opinions before I take a long drive, and perhaps a deep plunge.

I don't know Dave Harvey, but he seems willing to help, based on a few of his posts I've read. I'd write him with serial/date and see what he says ... i don't know about finishing and applying color etc., but isn't one person assigned to those for the entire build? dave may prove helpful to you, whether it was DR or someone else who actually built it. Those are beautiful instruments and your question is very reasonable given the value etc...that's probably what I'd do. Course, playing it is best, but it would be nice to have a few MM's in-person to compare to...that way really works best, but sounds impossible in this case. If you end up making the trip, be sure to brang your best personal mando with you for the test drive. Not to distract you but, there's a nice Gilchrist Model 3 available on Larry Wexer's website, described as a powerhouse. It's probably in the used MM price zone....just saying... OOOOLALA! www.wexerguitars.com

[sgarrity]

Every one I have played has been a fine example of a Gibson mandolin. I've played 6-8 of them and would have been happy to own any of them.

[f5loar]

You really have 2 types of Roberts signed DMM models. The ones signed when Derrington was still living and there in charge of the DMM and the ones Roberts signed after Derrington died in which only Roberts was in charge and I think an overlap with Dave Harvey. I personally have not found much difference in the 2 and I too have played a dozen or more.

[Wilbur James]

You really have 2 types of Roberts signed DMM models. The ones signed when Derrington was still living and there in charge of the DMM and the ones Roberts signed after Derrington died in which only Roberts was in charge and I think an overlap with Dave Harvey. I personally have not found much difference in the 2 and I too have played a dozen or more.

I did not know Roberts was signing DMM while Derrington was still alive, I assumed Charlie could only approve them as MM at that time. Seeing that you have found no difference in the two (sound?) I am assuming both involved probably dealt with each mandolin no matter which signature on some level, I could be wrong though. My main concern is the tone and sound of the Roberts signed DMM.

[f5loar]

Here is the data on this. Charlie Derrington dies Aug. 1, 2006. The first DMM signed by Roberts is on April 20, 2005. Roberts first started signing MMs on Jan. 8, 2005. Casey Sullivan also signed a few MMs when CD still alive. As far as CD signed DMMs I only count 3 proto-types he signed and about 4 regular production DMMs. The rest are all Roberts signed and I think a very few Harvey signed. So really chances are pretty good you are only going to find the Roberts signed DMMs. The Gibson records show CD signed his last MM on Dec. 23, 2004 and that was a F5V - X brace Blonde Fern. As far as tone and sound on the DMM (and MM for that matter) you really open it up to "matter of opinion" which is to say most people really like them and a few don't care for them. I like them. I could say the worst one I got to play was a 2005 for sale in Sevierville, TN at that Music Outlet place. Maybe it needed a set-up or maybe it needed some new strings cause it sure has been tried out by a lot of sweaty hands by the time I played it in 2008. But it just didn't cut it IMO compared to the many others I have played. TMK it's still there for sale at 10% off the last current list price.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I own a side-bound Roberts DMM from 2005. Very nice sounding, bright yet woody tone. As to f5loar's data, the face book Gibson Master Model Registry (kept by MC member Carles Hicks with additional information by myself) has it a bit different.
Last Derrington (though he officially stopped signing them in Dec. '04) would be:
V-70429 Jan 08, 2005, side bound, Old Style FP, small pickguard from Gibson, curved f. B.

Here are the DMMs:
Distressed Master Models Derrington's
D-xxxxx unlabeled proto from Cooper batch, scooped, Old Style FP
?’s about ser.-number, ...2, 2003 Derrington; from Gibson’s press release web site, Old Style FP low on peghead, mismatched inlay pattern “The” (open) “Gibson” (closed), side bound
D-70286 October 12, 2003 proto type Derrington (Charlie Derrington's Personal MM) one-piece back, Old Style FP low on peghead, mismatched inlay pattern “The” (open) “Gibson” (closed)
D-70287 November 21, 2003 proto type Derrington
D-70288 May 27, 2004 Derrington, Old Style FP, mismatched inlay pattern “The” (open) “Gibson” (closed), side bound, says # 1 distressed on label
D-70289 May 27, 2004 Derrington, Old Style FP
D-70392 July 9, 2003 Derrington, formerly owned by Big Joe Vest, New Style FP

Distressed Master Models Roberts'
D-70292 February 9, 2005 Roberts, Old Style FP
D-70293 Febuary 18, 2005 Roberts, scooped, shaved neck, Old Style FP, top “deflection” repaired by Gibson in 2011, full contact bridge
D-70300 April 20, 2005 Roberts
D-70302 May 19, 2005 Roberts
D-70303 April 8, 2005 Roberts, Old Style FP
D-70304 June 03, 2005 Roberts, Old Style FP (among Gibson’s generic web pictures)
D-70305 June 03, 2005 Roberts
D-70309 June 24, 2005 Roberts
D-70314 July 26, 2005 Roberts, side bound New Style FP
D-70315 August 4, 2005 Roberts, once owned by Roberts and used in the Grascals, New Style FP
D-70316 August 29, 2005 Roberts, "Brutus" formerly owned by Big Joe Vest
D-70319 September 19, 2005 Roberts, Old Style FP
D-70321 October 11, 2005 Roberts, side bound, Old Style FP
D-70322 probably Roberts, Old Style FP (among Gibson’s generic web pictures)
D-70324 November 8, 2005 Roberts
D-70327 December 14, 2005 Roberts
D-70328 December 16, 2005 Roberts, Old Style FP

Skaggs signed Distressed Master Models
#4 of 30, says “Proto 4” on the label, November 28, 2007, one-piece back, side bound, Old Style FP, gold-plated hardware
#5 of 30, 2007, Old Style FP
#7 of 30, handpicked by Ricky Skaggs for his personal collection, with letter from Skaggs, 1 of 30 signed by Skaggs, side bound
#9 of 30, August 7, 2007, Old Style FP; top regraduated by Randy Wood, back reglued with titebond in 2009;
#19 of 30, Febuary 1, 2008, Old Style FP
#27 of 30, May 3, 2011, Old Style FP, pick guard yet unmounted

Regards,
Henry

[f5loar]

There is a little more detail on that list then the older one I have. Was that last signed one made for CD? And do you know which of the last Roberts signed ones was given to John Reicseman at the LoarFestWest in Feb. 2006? Or is it even on that list? He had it special made with light distressing. I remembering see it and it was indeed very light on the distressing part is any at all. I guess he still has it. Is it to be assumed the missing numbers above in the DMMs were made but just not documented in this list?

[Hendrik Ahrend]

D-70328 is John Reischman's. It might be Big Joe or even good old CD, can't remember, who said that missing numbers don't necessarily mean missing mandos. As I understand it, sometimes they would pick ser. numbers at random.

[Big Joe]

Danny and Charlie were together until the end of 2004. Charlie was then moved and Danny stayed on till the end of 2005 when he was moved to the repair and restoration department where he still is. There was little difference in the models from that period except that they had more experience and the 2005 models are every bit as good and maybe a bit better than the earlier models. The earliest models from 2004 were the most realistic appearing because of the guys working on them but tonally seemed to get better as more were completed. Dave Harvey was in the repair department during those years and not the mandolin department. Charlie continued to have an influence until his death, but was not directly involved during 2005 or 2006. After Danny left the mandolin department he was still consulted for a couple years but was not directly involved with the manufacture of them.

As far as the construction, they were not built start to finish by one man (or woman). It was a team effort but the MM and DMM models were handled a bit different from the other models. These differences included the wood selection, glue, the tuning and oversight was by a different person and the finish was done by a different team. The final inspection and tweaking was given substantially more attention and it had to go through a tedious approval process. The MM and DMM models were certainly a step above the others.

[Wilbur James]

Thank you, for all the information, it has been educational and helpful.

[dcoventry]

Thank you, for all the information, it has been educational and helpful.

Ok, it was bound to happen sooner or later. We can close up shop now. Now I've seen everything!

dave

[Mark Seale]

"Last Derrington (though he officially stopped signing them in Dec. '04) would be:
V-70429 Jan 08, 2005, side bound, Old Style FP, small pickguard from Gibson, curved f. B."

There is some question as to when the label was signed versus when the mandolin was actually completed. We know that Charlie was no longer over OAI on that date 1/8/05. There was a thread on this a while back when the instrument came up for sale on the classifieds.

[Wilbur James]

Ok, it was bound to happen sooner or later. We can close up shop now. Now I've seen everything!

dave

Showing appreciation for others knowledge , does not end our pursuit. This thread has brought to light a few new ideas.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

"Last Derrington (though he officially stopped signing them in Dec. '04) would be:
V-70429 Jan 08, 2005, side bound, Old Style FP, small pickguard from Gibson, curved f. B."

There is some question as to when the label was signed versus when the mandolin was actually completed. We know that Charlie was no longer over OAI on that date 1/8/05. There was a thread on this a while back when the instrument came up for sale on the classifieds.

You are right, Mark. That mandolin was, indeed, offered for sale by Bill Lilly, who worked for Gibson (in the finishing department, if I'm not mistaken) when it was made. That might have to do with late CD signature date.

[dcoventry]

Showing appreciation for others knowledge , does not end our pursuit. This thread has brought to light a few new ideas.

As I said, now I've seen everything!

I forgot the smiley in my first sassy post.

[f5loar]

Just returned from a visit to the Music Outlet Store in Seiverville, TN. Yep, the 2005 DMM is still there and still priced at about 10% off list price which is $22,500 their low discount price. Action was low so really hard to tell if this one cuts the mustard or not but I think with a really good pro-set up(obviously the repair guys at this place haven't a clue) it could be a really good one. It was signed by Roberts on 3/7/2005 and is new not used! They also have a new 2005 MM signed by Roberts on 8/17/2005 and it is priced at $16,500. Action very low on it too and hard to tell. Needs a serious set-up. This MM has been "tire kicked" so much by so many mandolin pickers over the past 8 years it is starting to show some natural "D" to it. In a few more years they will have to send it back to Gibson to re-mark it as a "DMM".

[stevedenver]

music outlet store-$22,500 or $16,500
somehow, i find the prices and the term 'outlet'...interesting

wonder how long they have had these in stock
can you imagine having18k in inventory 'sit' for 8 years (my guess is 18K as to retailers cost, pehaps only 12K??? given these are 2005, and retail was less -and i presume some sort of deal with gibson that they need not pay interest for this stuff

from a business point-this is just strange, it seems
unless they like having a few high priced jewels to wow the customers and make them appear a big time place....

are there so many well heeled folks, artists etc in the area that they can expect a retail sale?

[sgarrity]

At those prices they'll have them for another 8 years. I guess they must have enough operating capital to keep the doors open and their employees paid. Not a very sound business practice IMHO but you see music stores hold onto stuff for a long time!

[f5loar]

Oh they have been there since 2005, the exact same ones. I know I have gone by 4 or 5 times in the past 8 years to strum them. Not only that they are sitting with a wall hanging full of the pre-flood Gibson banjos of most all models and that's a bunch. Another wall full of most all models of the acoustic Gibson guitars as well as some used. I checked used prices and they were all on the high end of vintage market prices. It was funny, the boy who helped me was rather hesitant to pull the DMM off the top shelf of the open wall. I pulled out my wallet and showed him I have an American Express card that could buy it now and a few others. He quickly said "We don't take AE". They also carry MM(that is Morgan Monroe, Bill's 2nd cousin from Beaver Dam, KY, not Master Model!) and Eastman among other imports mandolins too. It's likely the electrics they sell that keeps the doors open. It's a huge music store. I'm not aware of them doing a big internet/mail order business. Maybe someone who lives near there can tell us more about this rather strange place. They also have very nice looking real vintage stuff hanging up high on the walls getting open heat damage. Stuff like 60's J200s/ Barney Kessell Custom/Lloyd Loar TB5 tenor banjo, vintage Fenders. That stuff is not for sale.

[Danny Clark]

the three brothers started that store years ago ,i remember when they were in a small ,very small store up the road from the new location,
there was one small path thru the croweded store to check out instruments,i remember going in one rainy day and the roof was leaking in several places ,buckets in the floor catching the water ,right next to then ,Montana made Flatirons and Gibson mandolins,back in those days pricing was different ,seems like they offered something like 40% off list ,it was the cheapest place i knew of on a new Gibson they have been succesful to build the store they have now and buy the properety ,cause it aint cheap in that part of the country
never knew of them to deal in internet business or much used stuff

[f5loar]

I remember the old place too. Very small. When you first walked in I would see that 1924 Loar model TB5. I use to just stare in amazement at how fancy that fern inlay pattern was on those models. Well there was a time most every Gibson dealer would give you up to 40% off the retail (dealer paid 50% off so they made 10%). But all that stopped with the new way Gibson decided to do their retail dealers a few years after the big Nashville Mall store opened up. Many got the axe while the remaining ones got their hands tied to what price they can sell.

[baptist mando55]

I played a brazilian rosewood Scofield F5 that thet wanted 750 dollars for at he old store sounded real good but I didnt have the cash back then. The new store does have the same mandos year after year.Last time i was in there they had a nice 63 f12 for 2250 probably a pretty good deal. But if you think they have a crazy music store check out Harry West he still has things that were in the basment of his house where his store was at the time for over 20 years

[Wilbur James]

I did end up buying an 05 DMM #D70319 and could not be happier, This mandolin has incredible tone. I want to thank all who have helped me, it seems in my research these 05 models are truly excellent mandolins, a couple of collectors in which some are Loar owners have expressed they are some of the finer sounding modern mandolins, others claim they are the best they have ever owned, I even heard in a recent thread how someone had sold their Ghilchrist to acquire a DMM because of its tone and how it sounded very old, I believe the term used was spooky. It is true, I don't know how to describe it but it does have an aged sound. I know a lot of people desire the Derrington signed MM,s but I feel the Roberts models are every bit as good and you can tell Charlies influence was still present. Anyway, thanks again to all involved.

[f5loar]

Sometimes it's hard to pull the trigger on a high dollar mandolin but the quality and tone will remain long after the price is forgotten. Welcome to a unique small club of Gibson F5 owners.