starting fiddle

[pArispAl]

Hello from Paris,

I'm soon going to retrieve a family violin that my 85-yo aunt was offered when she was 12. The violin was manufactured in 1940 by French luthier Amedee Dieudonne who seems to be a fairly renowed luthier.

I have been playing the guitar for 35 years, been taking mandolin lessons for 6 months and am contemplating starting violin lessons in September.

I have found folk/Irish classes for newbies who can't read music and have never touched a violin before, which is my exact profile :

Has anyone had a similar experience? I would never buy a violin but this one has been in the family for close to 75 years and it's time it gets played.

Thanks for your advice and input.

Here is a text about Dieudonné:

http://www.luthiers-mirecourt.com/dieudonne_amedee.htm

and here is the violin:

[Hobo]

It kind of depends on what you want to learn to play. Elan Chalford at the link below has a good instructional course on playing traditional fiddle tunes. I found his instructions and materials well worth the small amount of money he asks. He's also on Youtube so you can get an idea of what and how he plays.
http://fiddleguru.com/

[pArispAl]

Thanks you ! I guess I'll try to replicate the reels I'm learning on the mando.

[Jesse Harmon]

I have my Grandfathers violin which was in very poor shape and had to be restored to playing condition. Not near as beautiful as your pictures but beautiful to me. I'm 74 yrs old which puts him a ways back. He served in the 1st world war and when he played he played at dances and such. I play and teach classical guitar and took up mandolin about 2 years ago. About all I have time for so far with the violin is some scales and trying a couple of tunes I play on the mando. I use fiddlerman.com to help with the bowing and technique. Really I don't think I have the time to make much progress but I really enjoy thinking about my Gramp when I do try to play it.

[DeamhanFola]

If it's Irish tunes that you're interested in, I would recommend Kevin Burke's 2 DVDs as a starting point: he does a great job of explaining things, the tunes are transcribed in accompanying booklets. If you're new to Irish fiddle, it will help to see what's going on, as the techniques that you might know from mandolin won't help a great deal for Irish ornamentation on fiddle. In particular, rolls might be hard to get used to coming from mandolin, as will bowed triplets. It helps to see these techniques being performed, and not only does Burke spend a lot of time on them, the camera angles are very good, with strong use of close-ups etc.

For book/CD sets for Irish fiddle, I would recommend the works by Peter Cooper, Paul McNevin (who also has a DVD), and Matt Cranitch.

A bit off-topic, but something that I might suggest for your fiddle (especially if you are planning to use steel-core strings like Helicores rather than synthetic-core) is a tailpiece with integrated fine-tuners, such as a Wittner composite. In addition to getting a better sound by avoiding the messed-up afterlength involved with add-on fine tuners as are currently installed, integral fine tuners will help avoid damage to the fiddle's top from the fine-tuners hitting it--that nasty gouge beneath the fine tuners is likely caused by this. I have Wittner tailpieces on both my 4 string and my 5 string, and love them. You'll probably want to have your fiddle set up anyway if no one has been playing it in decades.



One final thing--particularly if the fiddle is an heirloom, you also might consider getting a violin case with suspension--it's hard to tell from the picture, but older cases are unlikely to have it. Suspension will protect the fiddle much better than a case without it. Companies like Bobelock make a variety of reasonably priced cases with suspension. I love my Bobelock Corregidor:

[raulb]

Keep the French fiddle, they are pretty nice.

Although you have the basics down regarding fingering, you are going to find that the position of the fiddle and the bow will make a difference you may not be prepared for. Bowing is what separates the fiddler from the mandolin player.

I guess the tailpiece nentioned is nice, but if it were me, i wouldn't change the one already on the fiddle. Just put fine tuners on it. Four fine tuners are less expensive than a new tailpiece.

[Manfred Hacker]

1. Learn to read standard notation ASAP. Hardly any violin/fiddle music has tabulature. And it doesn't hurt for mando either.
2. For a complete beginner, the Kevin Burke videos mentioned above are too advanced. The booklet is in standard notation.
3. At this point, the last thing I would worry about is changing the tailpiece.
4. Yes, you will need a good setup and reasonable strings. As you want to take lessons, the teacher may be able to help you.

[grandomando]

You will find that simply being able to hold and move the bow will be a challenge.

Get Matt Cranitch's Irish Fiddle Book, it starts with how to read music and hold the thing, then moves on to easy tunes.

[DeamhanFola]

Keep the French fiddle, they are pretty nice.

Although you have the basics down regarding fingering, you are going to find that the position of the fiddle and the bow will make a difference you may not be prepared for. Bowing is what separates the fiddler from the mandolin player.

I guess the tailpiece nentioned is nice, but if it were me, i wouldn't change the one already on the fiddle. Just put fine tuners on it. Four fine tuners are less expensive than a new tailpiece.

The tailpiece in the OP's photo above already has add-on fine tuners...and they appear to be damaging the fiddle top. That's definitely a reason to sort out the tailpiece and/or set-up sooner rather than later--you don't want to damage the fiddle further if it's a family heirloom.

It's a bad sign that the violin has a scar beneath the fine tuners and the tuners don't appear to be tightened all the way--that may mean that some real adjustments need to be made (or it could simply be that someone in the past tightened them too far & left them there in contact with the violin top for too long). Best to get someone at a violin shop have a look.

With all due respect to Manfred, if you're getting your fiddle set up, there's no reason not to put on a more suitable tailpiece as it won't add much to the price--composite Wittners can be had for US $18. It will make your life a lot easier if you're using steel strings, and your fiddle will sound better than it would with the existing add-on fine tuners (or, at least it will when you're more experienced).

[pArispAl]

Thanks everyone for your advices. Looks like I'm facing quite a challenge! I'll keep you posted.

Hervé

[houseworker]

If you are planning to use this violin for traditional fiddle music, you need to find a luthier, ideally one who's used to setting up fiddles for this type of music. First, you need to know that the instrument is sound enough to withstand the tensions involved with the strings used by fiddlers. Helicores are an excellent choice when you're starting out, not only for their sound but their fantastic stability. Secondly, you need (as others have pointed out) a new tailpiece. Those 4 adjusters are far too heavy and kill the tone dead, as well as all the damage they end up causing to the top. The Wittner composite Ultralight is the gold standard for fiddle players these days, and it's not expensive. You'll need to get this fitted by the luthier, and it's as well to get him to make a new bridge at the same time. He'll check the general setup and position the soundpost for best tone. The luthier will give you a guide price when he inspects the instrument, but you should not be surprised if the bill heads up towards a hundred euros.

But the biggest problem you will face (unless you're quite exceptionally musically gifted) is that it is simply not possible to learn both mandolin and violin at the same time. You need to choose one or the other, and put in long hours to achieve acceptable fluency and pace. My main instrument is the fiddle and it took me somewhere between four and five years to be able to play a relatively modest repertoire at a medium session speed. That's with weekly individual lessons, fiddle school every summer, and putting in three hours plus practice every day. Of the group I started out with I was comfortably the quickest learner, and being in a position to do all that practice was a big factor in that. Just to retain my current standard I need to (and do) play a couple of hours every day.

So my advice is to choose which instrument you prefer and devote yourself to it 100%. Wait until you've mastered the one before you start over learning the other.

[pArispAl]

again, thanks for the pieces of advice you all are taking the time to write and give me. I am staring to quantify the challenge I'm up to, even before I have taken possession of the instrument

houseworker (nice name , I am hardly touching my guitars since I started mando lessons, so I do imagine I will have to choose between mando and violin at some point.

Have a great day everyone, and thanks again for your inputs and IMs, much appreciated.

[Jim Garber]

I agree with houseworker that esp in the early stages you will need to concentrate on one instrument or the other. However, I was actually drawn to mandolin while learning fiddle since it is a midway instrument between guitar and fiddle, meaning picked like a guitar but tuned like a violin.

I started out on steel strings but eventually switched over to synthetic core strings. There is really no rule that says you have to play steel core strings for fiddling. Also some players do set up their fiddles with flatter bridges but I don't. I actually do have a classical set up with the exception of a Wittner tailpiece.

As far as learning to play, I would see about finding yourself a teacher. Also group lessons or slow jams are excellent ways to get moving. There was a group class available when I first was learning and some of us became friends and got together over the weekend to play and listen to music. Very nice socially and a great way to play with others -- very important in any kind of music IMHO.

[pArispAl]

Again thanks Jim and everyone for your insights, this is really a great social place

[yankees1]

If I was beginning fiddle I would contact Pete Martin at pete@petimarpress.com for lessons by Skype on your computer. Great instructor and a past fiddle champion, but importantly a great teacher.

[Ray Neuman]

My experience is a bit different then some listed above. I started guitar in 1967, banjo in 1970, mando in 1984 and fiddle in 1998. And fiddle has captured my soul like no other instrument. I truly am just magnetically drawn to the fiddle. Complicating the situation are several physicial limitations and conditions, so, I enjoy playing the fiddle about 1/2 hour at a time, a few times a week, where as I play my mandolin 2-3 hours each evening while watching tv. I do make progress in my fiddling, just slower then the mandolin. Par usual, each person will progress and learn at an individual pace. YES..you can learn both, and yes its possible to thrive in both worlds, but take note.....they are indeed 2 different worlds!

[billkilpatrick]

just ordered the kevin burke "irish fiddle" DVDs - who could resist learning how to play "reels, jigs and breton gavottes?"

[houseworker]

Jim's quite right, there's nothing at all that says you need to use steel strings, and Thomastik Dominants are probably the best starter choice if you prefer a synthetic (Perlon) cored string. They're slightly more expensive than Helicores and won't last nearly as long, but they do offer slightly lower tensions.

Your fiddle unfortunately looks as though it has had amateur attention in the fairly recent past. The Guarneri pattern chinrest is not original, and the remains of the cork pads to the left (front and back) show where the original was. A professional would have cleaned those off. The bridge doesn't look to be very good quality and is probably a little on the low side, although it's not easy to be certain from your picture.

If you can find one, it's better to take your instrument to a violin maker rather than a dealer for a set up. While it may involve a bit of waiting it should be no more expensive, and a maker should cut out a bridge to the exact shape needed, rather than simply fitting a manufactured blank that may not be exactly the size your fiddle needs. They will need to know what strings you want, and that you are an absolute beginner intending to play traditional music. Mandolin players tend to emphasise the need for a good setup, and believe me it's even more important with the violin.

The damage to the top under those rather nasty adjusters has gone through to bare wood which still looks pretty clean. It might be worth asking how much it would cost to touch in the varnish. If it's left as it is you'll find the wood quickly gets dirty, and repair will be more difficult and more expensive. Rennes Encheres sold a 1941 Dieudonné in excellent condition last June for €1,680 inclusive of buyers premium, and somewhat under estimate, but that'll probably give you an idea of the likely value of your very attractive violin. If it were mine, I'd prioritise getting that damage repaired.

You'll also need to get the bow checked over. Most fiddlers find they make quicker progress when they start out with a heavier (and cheaper) bow - the extra weight stops the bow bouncing around.

If you've played the guitar for 35 years without learning to read music the good news is that fiddle music is normally taught by ear, even if sheet music is given out at the end of lessons. Most learners take recording devices to lessons as an aide-mémoire, and you'll find it a lot easier to commit tunes to memory by not sight reading.

If you do take up the fiddle I hope you experience the same pleasure it's given me these past years.

[pArispAl]

thanks again HW. I'll have to ask, but from what know, no-one has played it since my aunt in the early 40's... my nephew who has had it recently said he showed it to a luthier but he did not say he had anything done to it. Anyway I'll see my aunt next week at a family reunion so I can ask her, maybe this instrument has traveled and changed hands more than I know of.

But the first thing I'll do when I tale possession is to show it to the violin luthier who's just around the corner.
His website is in French: http://www.atelier-instrument-paris.fr/

[houseworker]

Monsieur Collado will take good care of you.

[catmandu2]

just ordered the kevin burke "irish fiddle" DVDs - who could resist learning how to play "reels, jigs and breton gavottes?"

That's the best, imo. Kevin breaks down and demonstrates Irish ornamentation like I've seen on no other

[Jim Garber]

That's the best, imo. Kevin breaks down and demonstrates Irish ornamentation like I've seen on no other

Of quite a few incredible Irish fiddlers, KB is one of my very favorites. That DVD is very enticing tho I may be getting too genre-stretched.

[catmandu2]

Of quite a few incredible Irish fiddlers, KB is one of my very favorites

Me too

Another of my favorites (but I'll stop now before I go off on a hardingfele rant! )

[Jim Garber]

Me too. Another of my favorites (but I'll stop now before I go off on a hardingfele rant! )

Hardingfele and nyckelharpa .... luckily I don't own either of those.

[houseworker]

Hardingfele and nyckelharpa .... luckily I don't own either of those.

MAS has nothing on FAS, particularly when Scandinavian exotica enter the equation.