Violin Question

[BeginnerMandolinistTyler]

Hey guys,
So I found my great, great uncles violin and had a few questions for you guys. I know this is the mandolin cafe but I figured somebody might know a thing or two about violins. So first of all, can this be repaired to where it's playable again? It has some pretty bad scratches on it but I don't think that will affect its playablity. I mean it might not sound so great but I'm not looking for a top quality violin. I have the bridge as well. I just didn't take a picture of that. How much do you think the repair would cost? Obviously it needs new strings and I will probably need a new bow. I'm not sure if the bridge is still ok to use. It seems fine to me but then of course I know nothing about violins. Second of all, can anyone tell me when it was made? For reference, my great, great uncle died at age 89 in 1992. I'm guessing it is atleast 50 years old but I can't be for sure. It seems to be a Stainer recreation or something. I think it was a beginner violin. Thanks for the help! I hope I can get it fixed!

[SincereCorgi]

I can't tell you anything about the provenance or value, but you're probably going to need a new bridge and tailgut and decent strings, so you're looking around $70 there just for materials. For actually setting it up, around here it would be about $100 depending on the shop. If it's been in storage a long time, the pegbox and pegs might need to refit, so maybe up to $200. You can't get a decent new violin for $270, so it's not a bad deal if you look at it that way.

[Hany Hayek]

Don't worry about the scratches and don't have any one repair scratches or re-varnish the violin. That will ruin the sound.
If you don't have cracks under the bridge or the back is not split (in the middle), you don't have a problem.
To start with you need a bridge and strings + the bow. Fix that and start playing with it to hear what it will sound like.
If you like the sound of it, then you'll need to get a tailpiece with string adjusters / tuners.
The bridge has to be fixed by a luthier. He will have to check the sound post as well.
Don't go for a fancy / expensive bow. Don't start with expensive strings.

[billkilpatrick]

violins in the family! ... serendipity! - long (continued) life to you both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Stainer

what you have is probably a german fiddle, made in accordance with his methods - they range anywhere in value from $300 on up. i agree that a trip to the luthier would be a good thing - not only for the set-up but he/she should be able to explain your violin to you in a way that makes you love it more.

if its sound is on the "bright" side (shrill - german fiddles have this reputation) and you'd prefer something more mellow, try zyex strings by d'addario - not too expensive and they last a long time.

[Bertram Henze]

He will have to check the sound post as well.

That was my first thought - after a prolonged time without bridge pressure soundposts tend to fall out (do you hear something roll around inside the violin?)
The tuner pegs look rather modern to me, not that simple creaky wooden capstan business I had to put up with 40 years ago.
Bridges are easy, bows can be expensive.

[Charlieshafer]

Same as above regarding the need for a luthier, with soundpost setting and proper bridge/tailpiece/peg fitting. Up here in Connecticut a tune-up like that runs around $300 plus or minus. On the value side, we've never once had an early-to-mid century German violin not be worth it. Essentially you have no cost for the parts, so the whole thing comes in at 3-400 bucks, which easily beats any new violin you can get for that. In all the years we've been doing this we've always come out ahead on the value curve, and occasionally come up with a fiddle that plays as well as some costing significantly more. That's not an all-the-time thing, and no, the appraised value doesn't match up because of the lack of provenance, but the tone can be really surprising.

[pArispAl]

Thanks for the inputs here. I will also take delivery of my aunt's violin which dates from the late 30's/early 40's. It was made by luthier Amedee Dieudonné in Mirecourt.

I'll keep you posted when I have it, before my neighbours (or my wife for that matter!) kill m!

Hervé

[BeginnerMandolinistTyler]

Thanks for the help everyone!

[Jim Garber]

The tuner pegs look rather modern to me, not that simple creaky wooden capstan business I had to put up with 40 years ago.

Those tuners are prob older than you think. I have a set that came on my 1915 violin but I am not sure they are original to that but are essentially the same as friction banjo tuners. if they work, fine. If not, your repair guy may have to rebush the pegbox and install a good set of wooden pegs, which, if done correctly can work as well or better than those friction pegs.

Bridges are easy, bows can be expensive.

A good bridge also makes a big difference in the sound of a violin. It is not just a matter of fitting one to the top but also carving out parts of the bridge to accentuate tonal capabilities.

Yes, bows can be expensive but there are now some excellent carbon fiber bows that equal wood ones costing 3 or 4 times as much. I would say you can get an excellent beginner's bow for under $200 and even around $100.

[F-2 Dave]

I love old Stainers. I've had several through the years, some good and some very good. My main fiddle right now is an old Stainer copy. Take it to someone who knows violins to get set up. Little things like sound post placement can make a big difference in the tone. Does yours have a one piece back or two? It doesn't matter, I'm just curious.

[multidon]

If this is a violin your great great uncle had in his youth then I'm thinking made in Germany in the teens or 20s. This was a period of high popularity for the violin. The shops in Germany really had to crank them out fast to keep up with demand. Reasonably priced violins were often made with corners cut to speed production. Sometimes there are no corner blocks or neck block. These are known as "trade violins". A good luthier can look inside with a bend a light and a dental mirror and tell you instantly if that's what you have. That's your 300 value as given above. Of course higher end instruments were made too. An internal examination is needed to determine this. Exterior examination means lttle as often very nice flamed wood wsas used on even low priced instruments. I acquired one of these trade violins some time ago. I restored it myself but I value the work I did at about 250 if it was done professionally. Yours probably will need a new soundpost and new bridge along with the new strings a set up and a cleaning. Several other things should be checked such as condition of the tailpiece gut which should be replaced with nylon and proper function of the tuning pegs. Spending 250 on a violin that is only worth 300 makes no sense from a monetary standpoint but for the family history it might make sense. I did the work myself for practice. By the way even the trade violins can sound nice. Mine ended up with a very sweet sound. Its the 100 year old wood!

[Bertram Henze]

Those tuners are prob older than you think. I have a set that came on my 1915 violin but I am not sure they are original to that but are essentially the same as friction banjo tuners.

If they had those back then, it makes me right angry 40 years too late to think how easy it all might have been

Yes, bows can be expensive but there are now some excellent carbon fiber bows that equal wood ones costing 3 or 4 times as much. I would say you can get an excellent beginner's bow for under $200 and even around $100.

Compare that to the price of a pick...

[Jim Garber]

If they had those back then, it makes me right angry 40 years too late to think how easy it all might have been

They did have those and other methods -- they had those funky gear tuners you could buy for cheap.

Compare that to the price of a pick...

Yes, you are right but a bow is not the same as a pick. You can play a mandolin or a guitar without a pick -- using your fingernail for instance. Try playing a violin without a bow. The bow is integral to the instrument, maybe more like playing a clarinet or sax without a reed.

[Bertram Henze]

They did have those and other methods -- they had those funky gear tuners you could buy for cheap.

I have done some research. These are probably what is known as Caspari pegs, invented in the early 1920s. Apparently, the holes in the pegbox had to be enlarged to deploy them, and many violinists would not like such a modification; there are modern geared tuners today which fit in the original holes but are still looked upon with suspicion by many players who prefer to have their tailpiece loaded with 4 fine tuners instead. You know how it is with good ideas...

[Marty Jacobson]

...but are still looked upon with suspicion by many players who prefer to have their tailpiece loaded with 4 fine tuners instead. You know how it is with good ideas...

In the classical violin world, it's all tapered wood friction pegs, and just one fine tuner for the E string.

[multidon]

I missed the Caspari pegs. As Bertram says you have to enlarge the holes to install these so there is no going back. That's why a lot of violinists and luthiers don't like to see them. However there is hope. You can plug the old holes and re-ream for traditional friction pegs. You can't do this with dowels like you can on mandolins and guitars because violin holes are tapered. A good luthier with the tools can do this easily. You need tapered boxwood bushings, a tapered reamer, and a tapered peg shaver set to the same taper as the reamer. You glue in the bushings with hot hide glue, cut them off flush, and if you wish stain them to match the peghead better. Then use the reamer to cut new holes and fit the the friction pegs to the new holes using the shaver. Sometimes you have to go back and forth between the shaver and the reamer to get a good fit. You don't put them in too deep, just deep enough to engage both sides. In time they will work in a little deeper anyway. The tools necessary to do this job are expensive enough and skills needed advanced enough that this is no job for an amateur. Get thee to a luthier! I would do it if I were planning on playing it. Those Caspari pegs are a pain in the butt and not worth the trouble IMHO.

[Bertram Henze]

...dowels...tapered boxwood bushings...tapered reamer...tapered peg shaver...pain in the butt ..

Thanks for giving me one more reason to play a mandolin family instrument...
Never trusted those violins anyway.

[Marty Jacobson]

Matt Phillips at Atlanta Street Violins in Roswell can easily fix up that pegbox.

[Bertram Henze]

...Roswell...

I knew those violins involved high tech that's way over my head - but if those hyper-luthiers drop by in their flying saucers for a repair job, that's ok.

[Jim Garber]

I had a set of Perfection pegs installed on my main fiddle -- those have internal gears but look like std wooden pegs. My other fiddle has the Caspari ones and they don't even work all that well -- sometimes they just slip out of tune. As I said, if they do work, just leave them or else you are in for a relatively costly retrofit to std wooden pegs.

[AKmusic]

I see a bridge in the picture. And it looks like you have everything you need to re-assemble it - including strings. If you have a bow - then I don't know why you couldn't play it now. Its almost certain that things aren't going to work as well as they could without some tweeks. And those adjustments will obviously help the the way it sounds and plays too. But I bet - if you have a bow (and rosin) - it can be played right now.

HOWEVER, I didn't see anyone offer this warning. Don't try to stand the bridge up under the strings and tune it up to pitch without first making sure the sound post is standing up. Doesn't have to be in the "correct" or in the optimal position, just make sure it is standing up. String pressure on the top plate without a sound post to support it could create an "uh-oh" or an "oops".

No instrument is "beyond" repair, what's it worth to you - to have it playable. That's the question. A luthier should be able to give you a real good idea about what it needs and what it will cost.

The fiddle looks like it might be old, but the chinrest and tailpiece (w/fine tuner) looks more "contemporary" to me. Could be just a more recent addition to the fiddle.

[BeginnerMandolinistTyler]

I have no idea when it was last played. I have 2 bows that came with it. One seems to be ok while the other seems sort of messed up. In terms of playing it, I have no idea how to use a bow except if its on a vibraphone or cymbal (a common trick used in percussion). I honestly don't know what the pieces are called and so most or the do it yourself advice is going over my head haha! I was also trying it to understand it while listening to a chemistry lecture

[DougC]

I have no idea when it was last played. I have 2 bows that came with it. One seems to be ok while the other seems sort of messed up. In terms of playing it, I have no idea how to use a bow except if its on a vibraphone or cymbal (a common trick used in percussion). I honestly don't know what the pieces are called and so most or the do it yourself advice is going over my head haha! I was also trying it to understand it while listening to a chemistry lecture

Tyler, you can learn a lot by viewing youtube videos.

But you would do very well to show your violin to someone who plays violin. Even better to bring it to a violin shop and get 'some hands on' advice.
I repair violins and my wife teaches violin in Minneapolis and I can tell you that the prices and advice online here are roughly correct.

And it is very special to be able to play an instrument that has been in the family.

So find a friend of a friend who plays. You will learn much more and have a great time, weather or not you actually fix it up and start learning it.


Good Luck. Try these violin sites.

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde...e-fingerboard/