MAS Therapy

[DataNick]

I am submitting for discussion a radical idea that I belive has some merit (at 3:45 AM PDT). MAS, or as my girlfriend who is a certfied medical coder states, MAD (Mandolin Acquistion Disorder as definied in the DSM4 manual) can be treated with a radical approach: play as many mandolins that you can (top shelf preferably >= $2k). In my 2 year mandolin journey, I have played several Collings F models, Eastmans (Giacomel), Gibsons, Pruschkas, Ratliff, Breedlove, The Loar, Flatirons, Webers, and a Sullivan.
What I'm starting to realize is that our free market supply and demand principles that dictate what the market will bear on a mandolin does not agree in most cases with what I would be willing to pay. Some cases in point: two friends of mine each have a Pruschka; having played both, I was not impressed and in fact would prefer a much cheaper mandolin or simply not even purchase one, let alone pay the $4-5k that they go for. I have not played a Collings that I would pay what they go for either. Another friend of mine has a Sullivan A model. It's a great mandolin, but if I had just shelled out the $5-6k that they go for, I would be dissapointed. A friend of mine has a Weber special edition F model; really nice mandolin, impressive workmanship, but I don't like the sound and wouldn't consider paying the $2k it goes for either. What I've discovered is as my taste gets more refined from playing more and more mandolins, my lust to acquire is decreasing. Why? I believe because none of these that I mentioned had a WOW impact on me as far as tone, playability, etc. Another case in point: Monday night I played a friend's 1994 Flatiron F Artist signed by Bruce Weber. The mandolin has had some custom set-up work, is very well constructed, sounds very good, but no WOW factor; therefore as I told him, if I had just shelled out $4k for this mando, I'd be asking myself why did I do it? Of all the mandolins I've played, including a friend's 1999 Gibson F5G, 3 have had a WOW effect on me: 2 different Gibson F9 mandos and my 99 Flatiron Performer A (which was bought sight unplayed from the Cafe classifieds).
So now instead of planning how many different mandos I can acquire, I reallly only have a goal of 2 more mandos to get in my lifetime, hopefully soon: a Bozeman Flatiron F Festival, and one of the new Gibson F9s.

I welcome everybody's observations and opinions; for me the end is in sight to MAD (Mandolin Acquisition Disorder); just keep playing as many mandos as I can at jams, festivals, etc and ask myself, would I be happy having spent $___k for that particular mandolin.

What say ye mandolin community?

[billkilpatrick]

my MAD was tempered by the medieval/renaissance music i like - i'd figured any mandolin available to me on the world market today would be far better than what musicians had to choose from then. luthiers certainly deserve every penny they get but from the buyer's side, i think there's a macho element in MAS related sales ("how much?!? - wow! - you the man!")

there are guys - i know because i've read about them ... - who own one, maybe two mandolins. very impressive - SAMAS (sane adult mandolin acquisition syndrome) ...

something to aim for.

[fredfrank]

I'd say you are on a track to curing your MAS. The key is to learn to be happy with what you have. Easier said than done.

Quote: "The mandolin has had some custom set-up work, is very well constructed, sounds very good, but no WOW factor; therefore as I told him, if I had just shelled out $4k for this mando, I'd be asking myself why did I do it?"

I'd be cautious about denigrating someone instrument as you are handing it back to them. As your Mom always said: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

[OldSausage]

Yes, try different mandos out for yourself, and do not trust anyone else's opinion on this, no matter how commonly or forcefully it is expressed. But for the same reason, don't be so sure your own judgement is accurate or works for all, regardless of how much experience you have.

No-one ever recovers from mas, so don't fool yourself, just try to keep it under control.

[Bertram Henze]

Reminds me a bit of Alex de Large and how he was cured of violence (and of Beethoven)...



...but the fact that a WOW (Whack Of Willpower) was consistently found, shows that MAD is not really MAS. People with real MAS
- either never find a WOW and just won't admit that they need a banjo,
- or get a WOW from a different instrument every day.

[Bob Clark]

For me, MAS is all about the quest, not the purchase. I like checking out mandolins even when I am not actually looking to buy one. That said, I am not actually wasting the sellers' (dealers') time, because I eventually will find one I must have, and then I will purchase it. Of the ones I currently own, there is only one that I actually set out to purchase. The others just wooed me in.

I like it that way. I celebrate my low-level MAS (MAD). I'll keep looking.

[vetus scotia]

The key is to learn to be happy with what you have.

Indeed, and I think learn is the operative word here. Too often this is formulated as the imperative 'be happy with what you have,' as if it is a matter of flipping a switch. If only.

[Larry S Sherman]

So what happens when you play an expensive instrument that sounds better than anything you've ever imagined was possible? Something that makes your previous mandolins sound like cereal boxes by comparison?

Your cure from MAS/MAD will fail the minute you play one of these, and your strategy is going to get you there.

There are some amazing instruments out there.

Larry

[JEStanek]

It may also have to do with what you can do with those instruments as well. The difference between Chris Thile playing his Loar signed Gibson(s) and an Eastman would sound much different that my playing those two instruments. Also, when I think top shelf mandolins I think a bit higher >=$10k rather than $2K but that can be relative as well.

Also, some people don't have MAD/MAS for higher end but rather for variety. My wish list is more along the lines of a Commodium, mando banjo, and maybe a mandocello. I'm quite satisfied with the mandolins I have. My signature below kind of sums up my feelings on it.

Jamie

[dang]

I welcome everybody's observations and opinions; for me the end is in sight to MAD (Mandolin Acquisition Disorder); just keep playing as many mandos as I can at jams, festivals, etc and ask myself, would I be happy having spent $___k for that particular mandolin.

What say ye mandolin community?

I say for you, the Opportunity cost of obtaining a given mandolin outweighs the value gained from said instrument.

As you already have 3 mandolins listed in your signature, I would probably enjoy your Flatiron A, and question why you have so much tied up in eastman mandolins... they are clearly not the cure for MAS!

[Jim Garber]

Of all the mandolins I've played, including a friend's 1999 Gibson F5G, 3 have had a WOW effect on me: 2 different Gibson F9 mandos and my 99 Flatiron Performer A

I would say overall you have modest tastes but there certainly is nothing wrong with your choice of mandolins. OTOH there is the cost factor which I think plays a very strong part here. If someone gave you $5000 and stipulated that you have to spend it all on one instrument, I wonder what you would end up with. I highly doubt that you would buy some mediocre instrument that sounded worse than a much less expensive one.

So, rereading your original post, you do equate the cost of a mandolin with what you get for it. I suppose the same is true for most products in the market place. I am sure that three is quite a bit of hype that causes consumers to flock to Apple products at much higher prices than others. However there are other factors that attract consumers to spend that extra cash: reputation, features, resale value etc.

Same for mandolins. I am a firm believer in the A vs F value observation -- you pay more for the scroll. OTOH I suppose I would want to own one one day if it "sang" to me. So I do understand your WOW factor too. But I think that the $$$ factor tones down the WOW factor for you more than for others. In fact, I would say that some people are WOWed to hear of a super high price for a upper level maker's mandolin.

I have played quite a few mandolins and many in the $5000+ category and many of those that I can walk away from. Then again, I have also savored some amazing ones in various price ranges including some of the elite makers. I have played some that some folks on this site have raved about and I shrug my shoulders. Of course I prob have much different tonal considerations than many people here. I am a big fan of the full tone of an oval hole mandolin and also have a predilection for bowlbacks. I would say my tastes run a medium-wide gamut and my MAS-induced collection certainly reflects that. But I also know which ones I would keep if I had to get rid of others.

[mandotrout777]

...for me the end is in sight to MAD (Mandolin Acquisition Disorder)...

Good luck with this.

[Pasha Alden]

Absolutely true Vettus Scotia

learn is the operative. Sometimes being happy is oversimplified. It is simple, but also complex. So one does go through a transitional journey - learning to be happy with what one has.

Best Vanilla

[jasona]

Plow your money and energy into lessons. MAS will take care of itself as you go. Just play the darn thing!

[DataNick]

I'd say you are on a track to curing your MAS. The key is to learn to be happy with what you have. Easier said than done.

Quote: "The mandolin has had some custom set-up work, is very well constructed, sounds very good, but no WOW factor; therefore as I told him, if I had just shelled out $4k for this mando, I'd be asking myself why did I do it?"

I'd be cautious about denigrating someone instrument as you are handing it back to them. As your Mom always said: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

fedfrank,
As my girlfriend can attest, my communication skills need a little work! My comment here sounded worse than the tenor/tone of our fellowship was when we were swapping mandos. The guy who owns the mando agreed, he said he felt the same way about other mandos he had tried. I did praise his instrument and it is a great instrument...just didn't kill (WOW) me...

[DataNick]

I say for you, the Opportunity cost of obtaining a given mandolin outweighs the value gained from said instrument.

As you already have 3 mandolins listed in your signature, I would probably enjoy your Flatiron A, and question why you have so much tied up in eastman mandolins... they are clearly not the cure for MAS!

dang,

5 months into my journey as a mando player (and being ignorant) I purchased a used 1958 Gibson A model, thinking that if it's Gibson it's gotta be great, and I wanted a more expensive instrument. I played it, was wooed by it's set-up (low action) and after playing it at jams, etc. I was really dissapointed by it's tone(kinda tinny) and kept reverting back to my Kentucky 250. After a month or so of this I took it back to Buffalo Bros. who have a 100% trade up policy and told them I don't want this mando even if I have to take a loss on it, just take it back! The guy working there that Sun afternoon said have I got a mando for you...he proceeded to tell me that a "really good mando player" had been there for the last couple of hours and had endorsed the Eastman 515 as a really good mando. Played it for 5 minutes and determined I wanted it. They asked for $100 and voila I got it. This Eastman 515 is not like any other I've played...it is exceptional and has legendary status here in North County San Diego for it's sound...just ask about "Nick's Eastman". The MD305 I picked up as a festival mando using store credit I had at Buffalo Bros. Took it to Temecula Bluegrass Festival last week and it's perfect for that kind of usage. I call it my "just enough" mando :
How much tone does it have - just enough
How much bark - just enough
How much ease of use on the fretboard, etc - just enough....

Hope that explains why I have why I have 2 Eastmans

[DataNick]

I would say overall you have modest tastes but there certainly is nothing wrong with your choice of mandolins. OTOH there is the cost factor which I think plays a very strong part here. If someone gave you $5000 and stipulated that you have to spend it all on one instrument, I wonder what you would end up with. I highly doubt that you would buy some mediocre instrument that sounded worse than a much less expensive one.

So, rereading your original post, you do equate the cost of a mandolin with what you get for it. I suppose the same is true for most products in the market place. I am sure that three is quite a bit of hype that causes consumers to flock to Apple products at much higher prices than others. However there are other factors that attract consumers to spend that extra cash: reputation, features, resale value etc.

Same for mandolins. I am a firm believer in the A vs F value observation -- you pay more for the scroll. OTOH I suppose I would want to own one one day if it "sang" to me. So I do understand your WOW factor too. But I think that the $$$ factor tones down the WOW factor for you more than for others. In fact, I would say that some people are WOWed to hear of a super high price for a upper level maker's mandolin.

I have played quite a few mandolins and many in the $5000+ category and many of those that I can walk away from. Then again, I have also savored some amazing ones in various price ranges including some of the elite makers. I have played some that some folks on this site have raved about and I shrug my shoulders. Of course I prob have much different tonal considerations than many people here. I am a big fan of the full tone of an oval hole mandolin and also have a predilection for bowlbacks. I would say my tastes run a medium-wide gamut and my MAS-induced collection certainly reflects that. But I also know which ones I would keep if I had to get rid of others.

Jim,

Thanks for the insightful comments...yes $$ for me does play a big part..but if $$ was no factor I'm thinking that I still would try to maximize the WOW factor...at least I think I would...

[DataNick]

So what happens when you play an expensive instrument that sounds better than anything you've ever imagined was possible? Something that makes your previous mandolins sound like cereal boxes by comparison?

Your cure from MAS/MAD will fail the minute you play one of these, and your strategy is going to get you there.

There are some amazing instruments out there.

Larry

Larry,

I hope you're wrong ... LOL

[DataNick]

Plow your money and energy into lessons. MAS will take care of itself as you go. Just play the darn thing!

jasona,

Thanks for the reply!
Not extremely worried about my chops having played guitar for over 30 years, mandolin was a relative easy migration, and I practice 1-2 hours a day, always watching other players, asking questions...but I would call myself a competent bluegrass mando player at this point...working more on cleaness of my licks versus the ability to play the licks...I work with Chris Acquavela's mom, have met Chris and will hook up with him for a few lessons in the not too distant future...

[Jim Garber]

Jim,

Thanks for the insightful comments...yes $$ for me does play a big part..but if $$ was no factor I'm thinking that I still would try to maximize the WOW factor...at least I think I would...

Absolutely... that is the whole point of any of this. Many, many years ago (mid 1980s) I was playing a lot of mandola and wanted to upgrade. I had a nice 1920 Gibson H4 but I found that in the upper registers it lost all volume. So I started looking around. Back then there was not anywhere near the number of quality makers there are now and mandolas were very hard to come by. I saw a used one at Gruhns and returned that one. A few friends in my mandolin orchestra blew what was a large bit of money on John Monteleone's instruments so I took a trip out to visit with him. He actually had two of them for sale. I agonized over them. The price was almost twice of any mandolins at that time (except for Loar-signed F5s). A friend convinced me that it was worth it tho -- he said, once you spend the money it is gone and you have an incredible instrument. So I liquidated a savings account and did not look back. Of course, that one had serious WOW and still does. Of course I had no clue at that time what his instruments would cost in 2013 but I was more into the instrument than what it cost me. Investment certainly had nothing to do with it.

[DataNick]

So what happens when you play an expensive instrument that sounds better than anything you've ever imagined was possible? Something that makes your previous mandolins sound like cereal boxes by comparison?

Your cure from MAS/MAD will fail the minute you play one of these, and your strategy is going to get you there.

There are some amazing instruments out there.

Larry

Larry (& everyone else)

Is it possible that what "WOWS" me is different that what "WOWS" you and that the "WOW" factor is dynamic and not static?

That's what I'm starting to think and if so then, given certain budgetary restrictions, I've just got to settle on what I have and not flip/flop impulsively when exposed to other mandos.

That being said, at this point I am very content with my Flatiron Perfomer A as my bread and butter mando, with my Eastman MD515 as a nice backup; still have an ultimate (not too distant future) goal of acquiring a Bozeman era Flatiron Festival F (just to collect) and one of the new Gibson F9s (to have as my main mando)

I think with that attitude MAD/MAS is treatable for me!

[shortymack]

I think, and this goes for all players and instruments, that all too often in our internet musician circles too much emphasis is put on the hood emblem and not the music coming from them.

No shame or reason to explain why you own 2 of brand X and not 1 of brand Y, audiences, songs and notes know no difference. Of course finer instruments have their advantages but owning a 10k instrument doesnt automatically come with the ability to play it.

[JeffD]

Nick I think you have it wrong. I think many of the comments have it wrong. Its not about getting a better quality instrument, necessarily, or wanting to fill out the diversity of the home stable, though these are part of it.

The basic syndrome starts with the rush of getting a new instrument (new to you I mean), the planning, the waiting, the anticipation, the pickup, opening the case for the first time, tuning and playing, the thrill the whole next 12 months of looking at it and saying "I own this!!". All a healthy part of our musical life.

Where MAS comes in is the contemplation that, now that I have a mandolin, I am never again to feel that rush again? Am I never going to have the thrill of chasing down and acquiring a new instrument again? Never? Ever?

And the answer inevitably is no, we can do it again. And then we backfill all kinds of reasons, like wanting to upgrade (we are ready for a better instrument), wanting diversity (I don't have an F style with oval hole...), or diverse playing options (something better for old time music), or a different range (OM, dola), or what ever.

For the sake of a reminder, Rod Neep was an active member here, years back, and he shared his excitement with us like nobody before or since.



I know I have purchased the last mandolin I will ever want, four times now. You have to have a sense of humor, because MAS is MAS.

[dang]

Absolutely... that is the whole point of any of this. Many, many years ago (mid 1980s) I was playing a lot of mandola and wanted to upgrade. I had a nice 1920 Gibson H4 but I found that in the upper registers it lost all volume. So I started looking around. Back then there was not anywhere near the number of quality makers there are now and mandolas were very hard to come by. I saw a used one at Gruhns and returned that one. A few friends in my mandolin orchestra blew what was a large bit of money on John Monteleone's instruments so I took a trip out to visit with him. He actually had two of them for sale. I agonized over them. The price was almost twice of any mandolins at that time (except for Loar-signed F5s). A friend convinced me that it was worth it tho -- he said, once you spend the money it is gone and you have an incredible instrument. So I liquidated a savings account and did not look back. Of course, that one had serious WOW and still does. Of course I had no clue at that time what his instruments would cost in 2013 but I was more into the instrument than what it cost me. Investment certainly had nothing to do with it.

Amazing story! Thanks for sharing!

[DataNick]

Nick I think you have it wrong. I think many of the comments have it wrong. Its not about getting a better quality instrument, necessarily, or wanting to fill out the diversity of the home stable, though these are part of it.

The basic syndrome starts with the rush of getting a new instrument (new to you I mean), the planning, the waiting, the anticipation, the pickup, opening the case for the first time, tuning and playing, the thrill the whole next 12 months of looking at it and saying "I own this!!". All a healthy part of our musical life.

Where MAS comes in is the contemplation that, now that I have a mandolin, I am never again to feel that rush again? Am I never going to have the thrill of chasing down and acquiring a new instrument again? Never? Ever?

And the answer inevitably is no, we can do it again. And then we backfill all kinds of reasons, like wanting to upgrade (we are ready for a better instrument), wanting diversity (I don't have an F style with oval hole...), or diverse playing options (something better for old time music), or a different range (OM, dola), or what ever.

For the sake of a reminder, Rod Neep was an active member here, years back, and he shared his excitement with us like nobody before or since.



I know I have purchased the last mandolin I will ever want, four times now. You have to have a sense of humor, because MAS is MAS.

Jeff,

Thanks for the insightful post...but you had to post that video, didn't you...LOL
I'm in full relapse now and I WANT that mando!

That thing would have me Praising God! as well...LOL

I need to go get "comfortably numb" or better yet, I think I'll go pick a bit...