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Thread: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

  1. #1

    Default Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Who has the earliest G&S Co. (Geib & Schaefer) branded case? Do you have a G&S branded case that you believe is original to an instrument dated before 1910? Do you have an early leather or canvas case that's branded G&S Co.? We know that G&S was founded in 1899 and at first made only leather and canvas cases. They probably started making hard shell cases around 1905-6, but maybe later? I'm not sure when they started stamping cases with the oval G&S Co. brand. They also used the diamond design on the pocket lid as their trademark. I'd love to have photos or even just your verbal description if you can help fill in our knowledge of the early years of G&S. Post here or send to kirtleymusic@comcast.net. I'm in the midst of writing an expanded version of The History of the Geib Musical Instrument Case Company. http://kirtleymusic.home.comcast.net...music/geib.htm

    I also have the same questions regarding M&W cases (Maulbetsch & Whittemore). They were a major competitor to G&S and they seem to be the primary case supplier to Gibson in the pre-teen years. They were founded in 1886 and made many of the early leather cases we see today. What is the earliest documented date for an M&W hard shell case? I've seen them as early as 1904. Who has examples? I believe the early ones had an oval design on the pocket lid, then a diagonal square, and soon the double diamond which became their trademark.

    I'd like to see if we can figure out which of these two companies produced the first hard shell case. I suspect it is M&W. (There were many other case makers but G&S and M&W were the big players. Also I am aware that many features of the hard shell case had been evolving in violin cases for years, but from what I've seen the standard hard shell case for fretted and orchestral instruments seems to suddenly appear on the scene around 1904.) I'd like to see if we can pool our collective knowledge regarding the emergence of the hard shell case.

    Regards,
    Steve

  2. #2
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    I assume you are only interested in US made cases by these two makers. As far as the first hard shell case for mandolin, you might also look to Europe for that as well. The US makers (instrument & case and otherwise) were not working in a vacuum. of course, I don't know for sure that the Europeans pre-dated the hardshell case makers in the US but it would be worth checking out for wider historical purposes, should you be interested in that.

    BTW interesting page you linked to above. I look fwd to studying it in more detail.

    Also: was M&W the makers of the Bulls Head brand of cases?
    Jim

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Thanks Jim.

    I have two goals. One is to document the history of G&S and M&W. The other is to gather more evidence regarding the emergence of what we now think of as the standard hard shell case. I've done lots and lots of research and I have reason to think these two companies were the primary drivers.

    I should have been a bit more specific about what I mean by "hard shell" case. I mean a laminated wood veneer carcass, covered with Keratol, lined with plush, side-opening configuration, metal hardware attached with split rivets, including spring catches, usually an oval center lock and a handle attached by "D" rings and metal plates. In other word, the typical hard shell case specifications that remained virtually unchanged for decades to come. I'd be very interested if there's evidence of earlier European makers with these specifications, but I haven't seen the evidence so far.

    Yes, M&W registered their Bulls Head trademark in 1893. The company and trademark were acquired by Felsburg Co. in 1920, and in turn acquired by Harptone in 1929. I have a lot of the history written and hope to post it one day soon.

    I hope you enjoy the Geib History page. Check back in a few weeks. I have been interviewing members of the Geib family and have been gathering some amazing new information and photos, soon to be published.

    Regards,
    Steve

  4. #4
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Fascinating... I have not paid much attention to cases, but you are prob correct. I looked at a few of my earlier catalogs -- 1888 Bruno and 1904 Tonk -- and there are none of what you describe for guitar or mandolin. I do see violin family cases like that. Perhaps guitar, mandolin and banjo players could not afford such cases, tho I would think that the leather end opening ones would be just as costly as the hardshell ones.
    Jim

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Jim, I have the Bruno catalog but not the 1904 Tonk. Do you have a link for it?

    Yes, all the experimentation was taking place in the world of violin cases. There were earlier ones that had some of the "hard shell" features but not all. I'll tell you the final ingredient that was the trigger to made the standard hard shell design possible. It was veneer. Machinery had recently been invented to produce rotary cut veneer. The resulting cheap veneer made it affordable to laminate shaped cases. Then you couldn't have ugly laminations showing, so they covered them with the recently invented Keratol imitation leather. Spring latches had just been developed. So there you have all the ingredients finally available right after the turn of the century.

    Now I'm hoping some owners of early Gibson instruments will contribute information about their cases so we can have some documentation.

    Regards,
    Steve

  6. #6
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    I don't have this book myself, but have browsed through it, and there is a lot of really interesting historical perspectives on the topic on instrument cases.

    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

  7. #7
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loudloar View Post
    Jim, I have the Bruno catalog but not the 1904 Tonk. Do you have a link for it?
    I don't have a link, I own it. Come to think of it, it might be a 1901 or 1902 catalog. I also have an 1890's Lyon & Healy catalog -- just have to find it.
    Jim

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  8. #8

    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Does anyone have a case something like this, from the teens or earlier? Does it have an oval G&S Co. stamp on the bottom?

    Steve
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  9. #9
    Registered User dustyamps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    This case has a slight imprint of a oval shaped logo on the bottom but I can't discern any letters. It's on the right side of the dried up sticker area.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Thanks for posting pics of your case. Do you know the year? If it's an oval stamp it will be either G&S Co. or M&W (Geib & Scheafer or Maulbetsch & Whittemore). See an example of each below. (In 1920 The Felsberg Co. bought M&W so the stamp was modified with the letters F&F replacing M&W.)

    These stamps are notoriously hard to read. You can try shining a light from the side to make it more readable. The other technique is to take a rubbing. Lay a piece of paper over the stamp and rub with the side of a pencil lead. That should give you a more readable version of the image. See the example below. I rubbed hard at several angles across the area until the image developed. You can make out "G&S Co., Durabilt, Trademark." Yours will probably say "G&S Co. MasterKraft, Chicago, Trademark."

    On your case pocket there is a diamond with a rivet in the center. What is on the other side? Is the rivet attached to elastic to close the lid?

    Steve

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  11. #11
    Registered User dustyamps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    There is elastic on the back of the door. This is an unusual case in that it has a 2 piece bottom to the body section. I bought this used without a mandolin so I don't know its vintage. Thanks for your research on the old case companies.
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  12. #12
    Registered User dustyamps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Here's another G&S Co case that has a different style outside covering that's thicker and more rugged.
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  13. #13
    Hester Mandolins Gail Hester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Interesting topic. I'll take a look at a buch of old cases and see what I find.
    Gail Hester

  14. #14

    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Here are a couple of the earliest hard shell cases I've found. Does anyone have a hard case of this era? If so, is there a trademark stamp or other identification?

    A 1904-5 Fairbanks White Ladie. The case pocket has an oval design. Who is the maker?
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    A 1905 Gibson R Harp Guitar. The case pocket can barely be seen. It appears to have a diamond design but could be a "square at 45 degrees". Who is the maker?
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    Another issue: here's a 1910-12 F4 case. The pocket has a "square at 45 degrees" design. Who made it?
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    Now here's a 1917-18 case that is virtually identical except it has the "double diamond" design which is a trademark of M&W (Maulbetsch & Whittemore.) My hypothesis is all these cases are by M&W, and that they had experimented with various pocket lid designs before settling on the double diamond in the mid-teens.
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    Steve

  15. #15

    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Hi - herewith from Great Britain --I have a case which came with a Gibson 'A' , FON 914 /ser no 3492 - it is evidently PRE the Geib etc ones which most of us are familiar with -I'd be grateful for any info on the maker as per your thread here - it is less padded, has identical latches to the Geib ones, is leather exterior with nice tooling etc leather hinges and the handle is held on by riveted leather thongs-no lock or locking latch, just the 3 wrap-over latches to close it up.
    .I'd like to know if it is significant/collectible etc , I'm pretty sure it is original to the instrument -which has the early Gibson 'harp/lyre' label in it PLUS the de Vekey label overlapping on top -my feeling is that this is either the first or one of the first Gibson instruments imported into Great Britain ..Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #16
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earliest G&S Co. Case? Earliest M&W hard case?

    Here is my 1916ish Rare M&W H-4 Mandola case! Anyone seen one besides his one? I showed my old Fern so you can see how it swims a bit in the case!

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