belbein
The bad news is that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. The good news is that what kills us makes it no longer our problem
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"..... perhaps sometimes it's the unattainable. If I dreamed about mandolins....they would be Gibson F4 black-face w/ Handel tuners..... & I've only seen a photo of one lefty F4...... Maybe I'll have to talk to Bill Collings....oh & double-flowerpot :-)
I noticed this too. For what it's worth, I'll chime in and agree with the consensus that sound-wise there is virtually no noticeable difference between body style. Instead, I feel the differences will be attributable to the woods used and the construction.
I've been debating the custom vs. production thing for a while myself. I'm quickly finding that my Breedlove isn't the best fit for my smaller hands (it's got the wide nut, big frets), so I'm looking at a new mando. However, I'm finding that when comparing instruments and builders, the small shops or single luthier offerings seem to offer better value and attention to detail than production models do. With regards to Collings, I've not been thrilled with QC. The scrolls on a few of the F models I've played aren't finished on the inside.
Kimble #220
R. Taylor Style 2 Sinker Redwood/Madagascar Rosewood
" With regards to Collings, I've not been thrilled with QC. The scrolls on a few of the F models I've played aren't finished on the inside." The unfinished inside of the scroll is a common & traditional way of building & is not unique to Collings mandolins. Have a look at 20's Gibson F5s, Gilchrist, Nugget....et al
Just get one of each like the rest of us
Shaun Garrity
http://www.youtube.com/user/spgokc78
Okay Doc...this is all very subjective, so after all it's just my opinion from my own experiences. I know more than a few players who have excitedly handed me their new Collings mandolins (and some that were already a good few years old). A few of them seemed pretty good and quite a few seemed dissappointing, especially for the money. One or two were superb, but those were well into the high end money. I'm just saying, overall, they don't knock me out as you would expect a mandolin in that price category to do. I consistently see instruments from smaller makers that cost the same, or less, that seem far more pleasing in terms of tone and volume. My personal opinion, the Collings name is now over-rated and their quality has fallen off as their operation has expanded.
RB - (Wolfman Bob)
Lawrence Smart - 2 Point
Flatiron - F5 - Artist
Gibson - F12
Gibson - A-50
Flatiron - Pancake
Fender FM 60 E
Wolfman. Have you been to the Collings facility? I was fortunate enough to tour it this past January. Granted 22,000 sq. ft is a large place for an instrument builder. But I find it hard to compare them with the likes of Gibson. Collings produces 1/10 of the units that Gibson does yearly. Sure they have grown a good deal, but they still are very dedicated to producing a quality product. I was pretty impressed with their process and find it hard to believe that many builders can match their commitment to quality. All in all every mando is going to have a different sound and feel. The piece of wood the tops and backs are shaped from will be different from one axe to the next. So getting consistency is nearly impossible. Like humans, they are all similar, but also have their own personalities based on setup, time of build, the mind set of the craftsman at the time etc. That's the beauty of it. Most everything in the mandolin process at Collings was done by hand, other than inlay, which was done by a CNC machine.
Pick your pleasure
If you tell Bill Collings he has a QC problem, he's going to want to know the facts. One thing about Collings, if there is an issue, even if you bought the mandolin used they step up to the plate.
The last few MF5's I played had me thinking about shedding some of my luthier built instruments.
"your posts ... very VERY opinionated ...basing your opinion/recommendations ... pot calling ...kettle... black...sarcasm...comment ...unwarranted...unnecessary...."
Like their guitars, Colling's builds great mandolins .. difficult to impossible to find quality flaws in any of their products.
I think that bears repeating. It seems to be something that most people know, but choose to largely disregard in discussions like this. Wood is not a uniform product. Every piece of wood, even from the same tree, will have different properties. Even in the same piece of wood, there will be variations in density, grain, etc., across its length or width or thickness. That's just how trees grow. And since the wood used in a mandolin has a huge effect on tone, it's not only unfair but unrealistic to expect some magical level of "quality control" in tone. Not without going to synthetic materials that can be produced in a controlled environment, which sort of defeats the whole idea behind a traditionally made wood instrument.
Construction techniques and the quality of the details during the build? Yeah, that's one thing to expect uniformity on. But final tone is very much a product of the properties of the wood which are often going to be beyond our measuring abilities.
They can carefully chose the woods they use, and perform any number of inspections on each piece as they build a mandolin. But at the end of the day, the final sound the mandolin makes is a matter of chance. Unrealistic expectations do not mean that quality control has slipped. As others here have mentioned, even some original Lloyd Loar Gibsons can be disappointing on tone.
The different characters of each individual instrument are what make them interesting. I'm not sure if I'd trust a maker if all of his instruments sounded exactly the same!
If you think a builder getting a consistent sound is nearly impossible, then you need to play more of them and listen closely. Why do you think a Collings sounds like a Collings and a Gibson sounds like a Gibson? Now, there is certainly a tonal range that each builder builds within and there can certainly be outliers on occasion. But arguing that Collings mandolins aren't consistent? C'mon now......
Shaun Garrity
http://www.youtube.com/user/spgokc78
So are we talking Gibson instrument production, Bluegrass instrument production or mandolin production? so we are figuring Collings produces 100 mandolins and Gibson is making 1,000? 200, 2,000.... I have not heard much about where they are making them but I never thought they were making that many in the opry mills factory. Seemed like a pretty small shop then.
To return towards our regularly scheduled program...the OP did ask about A style vs F style mandolins. Here's a clip of Adam Steffey playing his Collings MT2V...and Sierra Hull playing an F style Gibson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0eOAugV3QI
No question about that WMB. As a kid, no matter how much I practiced, I always sounded more like a teenager who would rather be playing football, than I did like Glenn Gould...even on my teacher's Steinways. So here's another clip of Adam S playing Sierra's Gibson & Sierra playing the Collings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9BFap-L-Bk
Last edited by doc holiday; Mar-14-2013 at 1:28pm.
I played a few of the mandolins that were available at Gibson in the Opry Mills mall there. I played an A9 and a modern Master Model, I forget now what it was, and of course I could hear and feel the difference. That night I was playing my own 1923 A2 back in the hotel, and you can hear a family resemblance. They all sounded more alike than they sounded like other mandolins I have played.
The only Collings I have played are several of the MTs, and they sound really wonderful. I have loved playing everyone.
There are enough differences between individual instruments, for so many reasons, that I would want to play any instrument before I purchased it. That being said, it is not unreasonable, with todays tools and expertise, to find similarities and resemblances between like instrument of the same make. While different, they may be less different from each other than they are from other makers.
In general, my experience is that F style and A style instruments are not more different than can be explained by being just different instruments, and further, there is nothing like a resemblance among F styles, or among A styles. Any given A style and F style are likely to be as different from each other as each is to another A or F.
Within a given manufacturer there may be similarities, if, for example, the company makes Fs with one kind of wood, and As with another, or other things related to assembly or age or finish, but not anything that can be attributed to the style of the mandolin, A or F.
Scrolls just look so darn cool.
I am in the own one of each camp and they are very different.
Some days I love the MT2 and other times the MF5.
.....good enough for Chris Thile:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6y...c#.UUPAI9E-swE
I've also toured the factory and was impressed. The thing that struck me was the attention to detail each step of the process. Nothing was halfway done or shoddily passed along. And each instrument at the end of the line was gone over with a fine toothed comb type inspection. To say QC is low at Collings is just not factual. I've seen how it works there, and they'll let anyone come in and see for himself (for free).
...
Collings is very picky about wood and Bruce is the only person shopping and picking out wood there. It is the only way to keep the consistency on track. You will see, that now, they have stopped taking order on ukes as they are looking for "suitable" wood. QC is something you need to work on. There have been other companies that have suffered in this area and it showed.
Little birdie told me that Sierra would really like a Collings, like Sarah's......
"your posts ... very VERY opinionated ...basing your opinion/recommendations ... pot calling ...kettle... black...sarcasm...comment ...unwarranted...unnecessary...."
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