Embergher - Is it the real thing? help me out

[cdmccann]

Hello All -

looking to buy this Embergher here in Italy and have some photos to run by anyone who may be able to help. This is my first go at mandolin and through the little research I've done, this seems like it could be the real deal... Seemingly a mid-1890's Embergher student version Mandolin. (via dei Greci 21 ROMA)
I've not seen it in person yet... but the things that throw me off are:
1.) the fretboard doesn't extend through the sound hole. I've only seen this on some posted photos of a mandocello, and even then, it's uncommon.
2.) pick guard looks authentic in shape but appears to be non-original tortoise shell look alike... again, just a hunch without looking at it in person...
3.) I can't see if there's a sig.stamp on the headstock (front or back). Does every Embergher have a signature? even the oldest of them?
4.) Again, the headstock... there's just a solid block of what appears to be rosewood without the two cutouts... ever seen this on an embergher?
5.) The bridge looks a bit pointy and long compared with other embergher photos

he's listing it for 400euros and hasn't sold it since list date Oct 23rd... text says it's been restored - Good price? rip off? whaddu I know... this is my first mandolin!

[Jim Garber]

This is very odd. I own a fairly early Embergher with the symmetrical scratchplate and it does not resemble this one at all. In fact this looks like it was made in the Vinaccia style not the Roman one. You are very astute in noting the differences. I have written to a friend who knows all the miniscule details and can tell us whether the shop ever made mandolins that look like this one.

My guess is that someone (prob not the seller) glued an Embergher advertisement into another maker's mandolin. I have never seen a label that looks like that -- one that has Italian and French in it.

That price is very good if it were a real Embergher but I am in real doubt about this one, as I think you are.

[Jim Garber]

I just heard from my friend and he agrees with me that this is no Embergher and the label is some ad or publicity from a flyer or newspaper. I tried to see if you can see any bleed-thru on the label but it does not show up. In any case, it might be a decent mandolin but it is not an Embergher -- not even a copy of one.

[Tavy]

I had a Stridente quite similar to that one:

[cdmccann]

Thanks Jim - I was hoping you'd reply, as from the looks of it from Embergher threads, your the main man...
So, I came across two things here...
One is this: (speaking about the extended fretboard)
link: http://www.mandolinluthier.com/luigi_embergher.htm

Luigi Embergher (1856-1943)
Born in Arpino in Northern Italy, into a woodworking family, Luigi Embergher took over the family instrument atelier about 1880, and by 1890 had premises in Rome... 'Via dei Greci No. 21'. He probably learned the craft of mandolin instrument-making in the early 1880s in the atelier of Giovanni De Santis. After 1900, he was to refine the modern Roman mandolin design, with the addition of a zero-fret, the extension of the fingerboard under the 2nd string up to the g''', and a much more pronounced 'V'-shaped neck. These refinements, together with important alterations inside the sound chamber, regarding the construction and strutting of the soundboard, quickly brought his instruments great fame.
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Secondly:

Then there's this add for a similar looking mandolin (but note the difference in the fretboard at the soundhole... but then also note the similar headstock)
http://www.pick-et-boch.com/catalogu...es+-+1903.html

This one is made by Carlo Navone in Naples c.1903. Looks so similar, even down to the bridge. This one is listing at a french dealer for Eu.320.
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So, that's the research I've come up with... thanks for contacting your friend... do you have any links to a pre-1900 Embergher student A?

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Tavy - Thanks for posting your photo of a Stridente... looks quite similar as well... barring the headstock... What year is that and from where?

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Thanks guys... your help is appreciated

[Jim Garber]

So, that's the research I've come up with... thanks for contacting your friend... do you have any links to a pre-1900 Embergher student A?

I believe that the two student models were not made until after 1900. I do not have an exact date but I can check tonight.

BTW I see that Dave Hynds (mandolinluthier.com) has a space for Student Type C. I have never heard of that and as far as I can recall there is no model like that listed in the Embergher book.

[cdmccann]

I also checked out the Vinaccia page on his site. http://www.mandolinluthier.com/vinaccia_family.htm
Looks like you were right... Maybe a take-off of an old vinaccia. Similar headstock, bridge, little to no inlay, rear vs. side pegs etc.
obviously there's no authentication sticker or markings so we'll never know.... Any guess as to the value of my listing based on our discussions and photos? Apparently it plays perfectly with soft action.

[Jim Garber]

I just checked The Embergher Mandolin by Ralf Leenen & Barry Pratt and it says that the student models were first created circa 1907.

[brunello97]

This probably has about the same chance of being a Vinaccia as it does of being a Embergher. 1000s of these mandolins were made by many shops to be sold in many shops with various labels, some by the makers and many be dealers. This is a very modest example of a Italian bowlback. I think John is more on target with the basic Stridente, Lanfranco, DeMureda, Ferrari, etc. range of instruments-all mas o meno in the Vinaccia-n 'style'. 100€ would be a likely fairer price.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I don't know if you want to spend this much money or want a recently made bowlback but I played one of these for many years and still have mine and Pandini is an excellent maker -- Carlo Aonzo plays one. In any case, this Pandini bowlback fron 2004 is only being sold in Italy.

[Martin Jonas]

I'm not sure what Pandini charges for new ones, but EUR1600 buy-it-now seems a good price for one of these.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

When I bought mine, which was made a little before this one -- I think the label says 2003 -- he was getting €2500 but mine came with a soft case and they are a little larger than even the large Calace mandolins so I could not get it to fit safely in an Eastman case. I finally found a hardshell that someone bought from Pandini.