Electric Mandolin Adjustments - HELP!!!

[Wupeide]

Hi All,

I have two electric mandolins. One is a Mann Electric 4 string. The other is an awful Epiphone that is completely unplayable.

Is there someone out there who can adjust these mandolins to make them play in tune? The Mann isn't terrible, especially when playing musical lines as opposed to chords - but the A and E strings both notate (is that a word?) sharp so that when the strings are in tune some chords are painfully out of tune.

I'll be getting a new acoustic mandolin sometime during the next month or so and I would like to send these instruments to someone to get them worked on. Any suggestions?

-Peter

[journeybear]

The term is "intonate," as in "intonation."

If the Mann is anything like the MandoBird, there should be set screws for each mini=bridge. Sit down with a tuner, very small screwdriver, and a cup of coffee or other beverage of your choice, as this may take a little time. Tune a string to be on pitch and then check the pitch while fretting at the octave (twelfth fret) in each direction from the fret. This fret is supposed to be at the exact midpoint of the string's length. If the tone for the bridge side is sharp compared to the tone for the nut side you have to tighten the screw to bring the mini-bridge back, increasing the string length on that side. This may seem counterintuitive, as this raises the pitch of the string, but once you tune the string again you will see that you are progressing in the desired direction. Keep going, bit by bit, till you get there.

I have found that while this does improve intonation, it still can be a bit off, even with my Ryder EM-44. I have taken to setting the intonation at the seventh fret, since that is right in the middle of where I do most of my playing. This means fretting each string there and adjusting until both the open and fretted strings are on pitch. Thus I tend to skip the first step; I mentioned that to get you in the ball park.

There are other ways to set and check intonation - comparing the pitch at the seventh fret with that of the next higher open string; comparing the harmonic with the fretted tone at the twelfth fret; comparing the harmonic at the seventh fret with the harmonic at the twelfth fret of the next higher string, and other methods. On a well-intonated instrument all of these should at least be close. I'm sure others will weigh in with their preferences, but the method I described works well for me. And from doing it enough, I've gotten better and quicker at it. For acoustic mandolins, the process involves moving the bridge until you are happy with it, and you may have to put a bit of a slant in it.

I had a lot of good times with my MandoBird, especially since it was a big step up from what I could do with an amplified acoustic. But I did have problems getting the intonation right. One of the strings needed a longer screw to reach the proper string length, so I knew there was nothing I could do until I got a longer screw. Frustrating, playing an instrument that forces you into a compromised situation. When I got the Ryder this problem was solved, and I haven't played the MandoBird since. People do complain about this, so I know it's a common issue. I expect the Mann will be able to be intonated properly.

Good luck!

[Tom Wright]

My experience with single-strung electrics is they are very fussy. To begin with, the correctly tuned (tempered) fifths always sound too close so my tendency is to let them sound "perfect" and chords sound wrong--A and/or E too high.

But an important issue is that the short distance to those first frets makes them sensitive to a high nut. Even when the 12th fret sounds in tune, the lowest ones can play sharp if the deflection required to fret the note bends the string sharp. Also, any bowing ("relief") of the neck will increase this problem, because of larger clearances to the low frets. So, if adjusting the bridge doesn't solve the problem, a high nut (and/or neck bowing) is likely involved.

Guitars are much more forgiving because that first fret is twice as far, and tuned tension is less, too.

So you have to tune uncomfortably tight on those fifths, but watch the deflection angle by looking at the difference between 0-1st fret as opposed to 1st-2nd (while holding down 1). If you see a lot of downward movement going from open to fingered, you will need to cut the slots deeper. I think makers tend to start high since it's easier to cut deeper than to raise the nut. The difference between low enough and too low is tiny. (Discovered through experience--or error, by another name.)

[mandroid]

I would like to send these instruments to someone to get them worked on. Any suggestions?

given location :China, How far are you willing to Ship it?

I couldnt even read a Chinese Phone book.

[Pete Martin]

One is a Mann Electric 4 string.

I suppose it depends on the model, but my Mann EM4 has a normal mandolin bridge. Just move the bridge until the intonation is as good as you can get it. Do the thing where you play the harmonic at the 12th fret, then fret that string at the 12th fret, then move the bridge until both produce the same pitch.

[Wupeide]

Thanks for taking the time respond. Unfortunately the Mann doesn't allow me to adjust individual string lengths. I recommend that all mandolin makers invest in bridge construction that allows for adjustment. Don't think anyone is listening though. It seems to me that this is an industry that has grown comfortable accepting a problem that should be fixed with a little engineering.

[Wupeide]

Hey Tom - thanks. Particularly for mentioning the thing about perfect fifths as opposed to tempered. I need to think about that since I always tuned my violin perfect fifths. What key should my tuner be set to in order to get the correct tempered pitch? Any idea?

As for the nut and the bowing issues, I don't think I am having either problem. this instrument came set up pretty well and it had the problem from the first day I played it, though it took me a while to understand, being new to the mandolin. Also, there isn't a big difference on the nut height from string to string, aside from the G which is quite high. However the G is consistently sharp nearly half way up the finger board.

Anyhow, thanks again! I will play with tuning a bit and see if I can get away from perfect 5ths. I may also try to lower the g string a bit.

-Peter

[Wupeide]

Pete

The mandolin doesn't have a traditional bridge. It's a metal bridge that is "Mann made" It can only be adjusted with screws on the outer edges.

Cheers,
Peter

[Wupeide]

Mandroid,
I'd ship anywhere.
-Peter

[Tom Wright]

If your intonation issue is greater the farther up you go it is bridge location at fault. But the difference between "perfect" and tempered fifths is really small, and may not be obvious using a tuner. Also, the single string will be sensitive to extra pressure squeezing it onto the fret gap, which will of course make it play sharp. The chords that sound the worst for me tend to be 0-0-2-3, with especially the 2nd fret B sounding harsh and high, but also the high G being uncomfortably sharp.

I always check octaves, e.g. comparing the D string's fingered G at the 5th fret to the open G below. Also check the 5th fret C on the G with the 3rd fret C on the A string, on so on. I push my fretting finger along the string, higher or lower, as a test to see which makes the tuning sound worse. Even very slight pressure will shift the pitch as compared to the other string (this works only on the wound strings).

Consider choosing different string gauges as a means to changing pitch result. For a given string, thicker will play sharp, thinner will play more flat. I like thin E and A strings, using .010 and .014 on my 14" scale Ryder, and heavy bottom, .024 and .040 for the D and G.

[Mandobart]

Pete
The mandolin doesn't have a traditional bridge. It's a metal bridge that is "Mann made" It can only be adjusted with screws on the outer edges.

Might I suggest a bridge that does allow individual string course intonation? I put the MMUPB on my Mandobird and love it.

[Wupeide]

Mandobart - Yeah - this is what I'd like to do, swap the bridge... but I wouldn't dare touching the Mandolin. I am sure I'd destroy it. So I need someone who can do this kind of thing for me. Is there anyone who specializes in solving this kind of problem with electric mandolins?

[Wupeide]

Thanks Tom - These are all great points.

Intonation is better up the neck actually - so it's probably not bridge placement. The nut seems to be cut pretty low (though I may try to lower the A and G slightly once I have the new instrument in hand) and the D and E are nicely in tune... so It can't be the frets right? I have tried playing with different grip intensities and the problem isn't caused by my pressing the string too tightly.

You are right, the worst chord is the G (0-0-2-3) it is absolutely awful because of the painfully sharp B! The D (2-0-0-2) is also terrible, unless I tune the G string down a bit, but that just makes the G chord even worse... It is a balancing act after which the final result is overall depressing mediocrity.

I have experimented with string gauges... including some of the ones you mention, but this has not made a big impact on the intonation.

Do you know anyone who does this kind of adjustment?

-Peter

[rico mando]

Thanks for taking the time respond. Unfortunately the Mann doesn't allow me to adjust individual string lengths. I recommend that all mandolin makers invest in bridge construction that allows for adjustment. Don't think anyone is listening though. It seems to me that this is an industry that has grown comfortable accepting a problem that should be fixed with a little engineering.

I would have bought a mann emando but I can not abide the bridge design

[Mandobart]

Is there anyone who specializes in solving this kind of problem with electric mandolins?

Contact Pete Almuse (Soundfarmer Pete) or Tom at Moongazer. Also, Andrew Jerman or contact Martin at emando.

[Tom Wright]

Your symptoms are consistent with a high nut, or possibly bowed neck due to inadequate truss rod counter-tension. The G and A strings will be more reactive to excessive height than the thinner (wound and plain, respectively) D and E. As I said, the difference between the right height and too high is really small. Use a magnifying glass to observe the deflection when you fret from open to fretted, and compare it to when you go from one fret to the next. The nut needs to be pretty much exactly as low as if there were a fret there.

A set of nut files from Stewart-MacDonald is useful to have around (probably made in China, maybe you can find locally). Although it is easy to go too far in cutting the slots deeper, loosening the nut and shimming it up with a piece pf paper is not a disaster. Lots of folks here can advise on how to do that. Consider buying a few blanks of similar size and making some nuts.

[jesserules]

Hi All,

I have two electric mandolins. One is a Mann Electric 4 string.

Is there someone out there who can adjust these mandolins to make them play in tune? The Mann isn't terrible, especially when playing musical lines as opposed to chords - but the A and E strings both notate (is that a word?) sharp so that when the strings are in tune some chords are painfully out of tune.



-Peter

Pete

The mandolin doesn't have a traditional bridge. It's a metal bridge that is "Mann made" It can only be adjusted with screws on the outer edges.

Cheers,
Peter

That's kind of surprising. Jonathan Mann is a very well regarded builder, as a Cafe search will confirm. Have you tried contacting him directly to see if he has any advice?

[thistle3585]

Jon makes a very fine instrument and I'd say the problem lies with the changes that come about as a result of shipping an instrument long distances and to a much different type of environment than what it was originally setup in. I'd be concerned that if you did ship it somewhere to be repaired that you'd be right back where you started when it was sent back to you. I believe this is something that a decent guitar tech could resolve and would suggest trying to locate one in your area to start. Other than that, I'd suggest a small investment in a few tools and a book on how to setup and maintain instruments and then you can resolve these issues on your own. Its not rocket science and it just takes a willingness to learn.

[Wupeide]

Andrew,

Thanks for the post. Without more specifics regarding how the environment or shipping might change the instrument, I am afraid I can't confirm or deny what you are saying. There is also the possibility that the instrument is 'setting' over time. That said, the problem existed from the first day I received it and the box it came in showed no sign of abuse.

As for your other suggestions, I don't want to damage something this instrument. It is very valuable to me. I play it all the time and even perform with it, though I am not really much of a performer. It's also very difficult for me to get access to tools and books, since I can only purchase locally. There are actually no decent guitar repair men in this city, I have checked.

Anyhow, I do have a violin maker friend who might be able to help. He just has lots of ideas that are not really accurate for mandolin that he brings over from the violin. He did resolve a problem with the nut before. The strings were binding in the nut and he smoothed out the tops of the ridges, since then, not one broken string. They were breaking just about once a week before that.

Anyhow, thanks.

[Wupeide]

Duplicate post remvoed

[Wupeide]

Jesserules

It seems that we all want to think highly of Jon Mann, and in many respects I do. He was a pleasant patient man in his dealings with me and the instrument is beautiful in many respects. I love the variety of tones I can produce with it.

However, It also has some small problems (and two very big ones), as one would expect when spending less than 2K, I suppose.

I have spoken with him and he made a few recommendations. However, in the end, I may have been getting on his nerves. Once a purchase is made, the purchaser should accept the quality of the instrument or send it back. Being in China, this isn't so convenient for me to do and I just kept pestering him with questions, trying to resolve the two main problems I had with the instrument.

His suggestions never resolved the problems and he stopped responding to my messages, though he was never rude.

Being an outsider, new to the mandolin, I just concluded that my standards may be too high. I don't want bother the guy any more, unless I eventually buy another one of his instruments and quite frankly if it weren't for this intonation problem, I would be ordering an acoustic right now, and perhaps an octave mando next year. I absolutely love the concept of these instruments.

I just don't think it's too much to ask that a G chord and D chord actually sound in tune when I play them.

If I ever get the issue resolved, I will post a video about the process and about this instrument's pros and cons.

-Peter

[Wupeide]

Tom,
Thanks again. I'll give it a try.
-Peter

[thistle3585]

To expand on my comments, it may be that the humidity level in China is significantly higher than it was in TN where the instrument was setup. This may result in some swelling of the wood thus the neck may have moved causing the action to be low or high. I have shipped instruments across the country which have required setups once they get to that geographical region. It really isn't anyone's fault, its just what happens. Again, I'd highly suggest that you invest in a few tools and a book. This really is something that you could resolve and I suspect that any builder or luthier that is familiar with fretted instruments could resolve.

[Soundfarmer Pete]

One thing strings (sorry)springs to mind).......given the Chinese location, what strings are you using?
The Chinese are great at making many things but sadly string manufacture does not seem to be one of their strong points.

Example.....Primarily, I`m a bass player and I was given a few sets of Chinese roundwound strings to evaluate.....I put on a fresh set prior to rehearsal, stretched them in and away I went. Within less than an hour everything was bonkers - part way up the `board, notes would be flat....go up a couple of frets and they`d be sharp.....whole thing was unlike anything I`d ever experienced before and my conclusion was that it must be related to a poor quality core wire with a tensile strength that varied along its length.....and to add insult to injury, the winding graunched their way into the frets (and generally Warwick fretwire is really hard wearing.....Evo?)

I`ve come to the conclusion that one good way (if in doubt) of checking strings is simply to take them out of the packet, unwind them and throw them on the table - If they spring into pretty much of a straight line, then the windings are even....if they land floppy and worm like, chances are they`re not very good (even if they`re LABELLED D`Addario)

[jesserules]

I suppose you've tried retuning the strings until the chords sound good, and then playing single-note lines to see if they still sound acceptable?