Tabs vs music notation

[Dr H]

Why no example of Gregorian chant?

Heh.

To answer seriously: because we are discussing tablature for (primarily) stringed instruments and Gregorian chant is a vocal form. All of the examples I gave are of tablature for closely-related stringed instruments -- three are for Renaissance lute and one is for Renaissance vihuela, which was generally tuned the same as the lute.

All of the examples are contemporaneous. They illustrate the point that tab is not necessarily intuitive because it was not/is not standardized, even among people writing for the same instrument at around the same time period. If you were a student of Mudarra you could read his tab, but probably not John Dowland's tab; and vice-versa.

As already noted, this situation, although somewhat improved, is still true today. Staff notation is standardized; tablature notation is not. Different publishers use differet symbols to mean the same thing, and sometimes the same symbol to mean different things. Without actually hearing the piece first, you can't really be sure of what those ambiguous tablature elements mean.

[bratsche]

I think Bertram's analogy to the digital-versus-analog watch is a good one.
There are two different kinds of information being presented, and they are processed differently by the brain. If I need to know how much time I have to get to my 3:00 appointment, a glance at an analog clock shows me instantly that I have about 1/3 of an hour. With a digital clock I have to process "2:41", interpret it as a hybrid sexagesimal/decimal number, and do a mental subtraction.

When presented with numbers (tab) we're using a different part of the brain than when we interpret a visual image (notation), so tab adds a step to the process. In some cases it makes little difference: to determine whether a note is an eighth-note in either kind of notation I have to look at the bottom of the stem.

But in other cases staff notation takes fewer steps: I only need to see the head of a half-note on the staff to know that it's a half-note. With tab I see the number first, then I have to look at the other end of the stem -- and even then I'm not 100% sure if it's a half-note or a quarter-note without also examining the larger context of the measure. That's a whole lot more work than just looking at the note-head.

That's quite an interesting point about the brain. It also makes perfect sense to me, in that I'm a highly visual learner, even when it comes to sonoral (musical) things, which seems strange to some people. I even use a mental picture of standard notation as an intuitive key component of my process of memorization of tricky passages. I also, not surprisingly, tend to favor analog clock displays, road maps, and of course, standard notation, over other forms of numeric, symbolic, coded and/or verbal directions. The more graphically (visually) they're made to represent the reality they stand for, the more naturally my mind "gets" them. (I do not look at my fingerboard or conjure up any mental images of it, though. I guess that's more of a tactile sensory input thing with me!)

bratsche

[fatt-dad]

I play by ear first, then by road-map. My road map (historically) has been tab related to the mandolin.

As yourself, why is there no tab for singing? (Ha!) It just doesn't make sense that's why! That said, as a singer, I don't process the bouncing ball into notes and then some setting on the larnyx. I just sing!

When I was learning the french horn, my teacher told me, "You have to sing the french horn." That sort of made sense to me. You see if you don't hear the note before you try to play it, you'll likely play the wrong note, irrespective of your fingering.

I recently carried this "singing" approach to playing the mandolin. From this I can now (sort of) read standard notation. For starters, I get the standard notation, then I listen to the music (temper my ear) then I try to replicate what I heard in my ear to playing the notes on the page - sort of singing.

It's sort of working!

f-d

[Tobin]

Of course your view is yours and that's fine with me. Nonetheless the statement that tab is like "English without punctuation" is simply incorrect. Modern day tab produced on programs like TablEdit gives the same information to the playerr as standard notation.

Again please pull up the tab I posted in PDF in post #56 of this string to see what I mean.

I can see how the more complicated tablature might start to approach the same level of information that standard notation does. But I'd venture to guess that 95% of the tab out there isn't like that. At least, not that I've found. It is usually presented simply as numbers, with the actual notation shown separately above, and the tab acts only as a supplement to the actual music. Which takes me back to my original point. It doesn't seem to be a stand-alone form of written musical language without taking it to levels that most people have never seen. And so in its common usage, I can really only see it as being a fingering aid, and not a replacement for the ability to read sheet music. I actually like to see both.

Perhaps my example of comparing it to the English language was not the best. Sorry, I'm not very creative with analogies like this. Maybe a better example is that standard notation is the English language and tab is the phonetic spelling. It will help you speak the words (or in this case, play the notes), but isn't really the same as reading the actual language. If one understands the language thoroughly, he doesn't need the phonetic spelling. And seeing the phonetic spelling alone isn't really an equal substitute. *shrug* I'm sure that analogy can be picked apart too.

As for the discussion on piano methods working against stringed instruments, I am probably the odd man out, because I actually think it helped. The keys on the piano are a pretty effective way of remembering the structure of the chromatic scale. And I do still mentally translate from my mental image of piano keys. I honestly don't know how else to think of music. It just helps keep it logical and structured in my head.

[Dr H]

Oh yeah. How I hated these music teachers always talking "white keys" and "black keys", and there I was, outcast, stringed instrument in hand (don't get me started about those strings inside the piano).

I feel your pain.

At least, violin and mandolin offer a surrogate system of consequent fifths you can build on, but the guitar with that odd third was clearly designed to remove all sense from life.

Well, speaking as one who was a guitarist for a long while before becoming a mandolinist, I do have to defend my larger instrument. It has too many strings to be effectively put into 5ths tuning.

I have experimented with all 4ths. It's wonderful for playing single-line solo lines, or jumping around in parallel intervals -- a passage fingers the same no matter what string you start on. But it makes a lot of standard chords an absolute b|tch to play. That 3rd was slipped in there for a reason.

[Dr H]

Very impressive. I suspect we had a completely wrong notion about these:

Whoa! An Ancient Egyptian death-metal solo!

[Dr H]

When I was learning the french horn, my teacher told me, "You have to sing the french horn." That sort of made sense to me. You see if you don't hear the note before you try to play it, you'll likely play the wrong note, irrespective of your fingering.

One of my better jazz teachers used to tell me something similar. He'd have me sing a solo line before he'd let me play it. His motto was "if you can sing it, you can play it."

While this might not have been 100% literally true, it did help me to conceive of improvised solos that weren't dependent on pre-learned fretboard patterns.

[Dr H]

Maybe a better example is that standard notation is the English language and tab is the phonetic spelling. It will help you speak the words (or in this case, play the notes), but isn't really the same as reading the actual language. If one understands the language thoroughly, he doesn't need the phonetic spelling.

I think that's a great analogy.

When I was in elementary school and they still did things like "Christmas Pageants", our music teacher decided one year that it would be interesting to do something different than the standard "top 20" carols. I grew up in a highly ethnically diverse community, and after determining the ethnic backgrounds represented by the kids in the music class, she selected a popular "old country" carol for each ethnicity, and decreed that we would perform each in its original native language. Mind you, we ranged in age from about 7-12, and except for one kid (bilingual in Ukranian) none of us spoke any language other than English.

She gave us phonetic lyric sheets for each carol, and lo and behold, with just a month of rehearsal we brought off a performance featuring carols in 12 different tongues, that was a major hit in the community, and subsequently brought back each season for many years afterwards. The bilingual kid translated the Ukranian carol for the rest of us, but to this day I don't know what we sang in the other 10 non-English languages.

[August Watters]

I can see how the more complicated tablature might start to approach the same level of information that standard notation does.

Well, there it is. We've created a new internet meme.

[ralph johansson]

I don't usually participate in quasi-religious debates such as this one, but someone asked my opinion - so I outlined some ideas I try to get across in teaching.



Not exactly what I said - which is that SN can be easily learned. As I mentioned it can also be taught poorly, or not connected to the ear, in which case its benefits can be overlooked or misunderstood. These debates are fueled by such misunderstandings.

SN and tab are two different tools. Learn them both, then compare.

I've encountered people who "learned" SN without reference to theory. So, if there were three flats in the key signature they strained to REMEMBER to flatten those three notes, instead of simply reading further and deciding whether the tune was in E flat major or c minor (in most cases). I don't think they really heard the music in front of them. And in one earlier thread I read that one of the advantages of TAB is you don't have to think about keys at all!

[ralph johansson]

Well it IS kind of a tricky little tune! Strauss and Rimsky-Korsokov both stole Luigi Denza's beautiful little Neapolitan melody and they were sued for the effort. Strauss lost his case and had to pay -- not sure about the Russian guy. The double sharps are in the standard notation not the tab and that must be a result of the programs interaction with the midi file I guess? But I think the tab gives the "correct" notes. You don't need a key signature with tab? (PS I pointed out in an earlier post for the notation that I think I have the tune in the key of C here -- I just forgot to change the information on the title page after I transposed it).

But the bottom line is you can play the tune with tab and that's all I care about. It is amazing the standard notation readers have such a angst with something they don't have to use at all!

It's not tricky at all if notated properly, in 6/8 without mysterious dottings. I had to bring out paper and pencil to determine whether the note values add upp correctly. A 1/4 note followed by a dotted 1/6, followed by another 1/4 and dotted 1/16, whew!
If one of these transcribing keyboards was used someone has a very free sense of rhythm.

[Bertram Henze]

I have experimented with all 4ths. It's wonderful for playing single-line solo lines, or jumping around in parallel intervals -- a passage fingers the same no matter what string you start on. But it makes a lot of standard chords an absolute b|tch to play. That 3rd was slipped in there for a reason.

I had suspected this. Having more strings than fingers can lead to no good. 4 is plenty.

[JeffD]

I've encountered people who "learned" SN without reference to theory. ...I don't think they really heard the music in front of them. And in one earlier thread I read that one of the advantages of TAB is you don't have to think about keys at all!

Its quite easy, perhaps easier, to learn something wrong. And in my experience, the less I have to think about, the less I am going to think about.

There is no magic system that "gets you there" faster, or easier. The extent that it is easier is the extent it leaves out harder stuff that you will eventually need to learn anyway. Everything you don't know will bite you in the tail piece sooner or later.

[Dr H]

I had suspected this. Having more strings than fingers can lead to no good. 4 is plenty.

I always figured that if the average human had six fingeres on each hand, the standard guitar would probably have been given seven strings.

[Bertram Henze]

I always figured that if the average human had six fingeres on each hand, the standard guitar would probably have been given seven strings.

There is kind of hard evidence for that.

[SincereCorgi]

I always figured that if the average human had six fingeres on each hand, the standard guitar would probably have been given seven strings.

Are you implying that Russians and Brazilians...?

[bratsche]

[Londy]

I can read standard notation and tab. I think it's good to know both for communication reasons but as a musician, I use standard most of the time. Just remember there are advantages of being flexible using both.

[Austin Bob]

I can read standard notation and tab. I think it's good to know both for communication reasons but as a musician, I use standard most of the time. Just remember there are advantages of being flexible using both.

Agree wholeheartedly. Tabs are great for learning a tune on your own, but nothing beats sheet music when you get 4 or different instruments plus twice that many singers in the same room trying to learn 5 new songs in an hour. Which is pretty much what we do every week in choir practice.

[Grommet]

Glad that's finally settled! What's next?

Scott

[bratsche]

Glad that's finally settled! What's next?

Scott

A group hug?

bratsche

[Dr H]

Are you implying that Russians and Brazilians...?

I don't know about Brazilians, but it seems to me that I once read about a village or a region in Russia in which a substantial part of the population had hereditary ulnar polydactyly, in the form of a fully developed 6th finger on each hand. . .

[Dr H]

Glad that's finally settled! What's next?

Scott

A style versus F style?

[Dr H]

There is kind of hard evidence for that.

No problem -- 10 strings, 10 fingers.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

the population had hereditary ulnar polydactyly, in the form of a fully developed 6th finger on each hand

That's better than what my kids sometimes display, hereditary stridulous pterodactyly, in the form of screeching and flying around the house in the early hours.