Tabs vs music notation

[Jordan Ramsey]

Crosspicking, McReynolds. That's Bluegrass, a strictly no-notation genre of music. I don't crosspick on the mandolin; on the guitar I might throw in a couple of crosspicked segments in high positions (no open strings) which of course would present no problems in notation. I can't help but wonder why anyone would want full scores of crosspicked solos. What you need is the melody and a few ideas about which patterns to use, which strings to leave open (for a mildly dissonant effect); three or four diagrams should suffice to convey these principles. Maybe it's a generational thing. I was into Bluegrass in the late 60's; I, or my fellow players, never used notation of any kind. The only sources for material were records. We could slow the LP's down to half speed; we could also slow down EP's, but then had to transpose back a fifth or fourth, I forget which. I recall wanting to assimilate some of Monroe's blues language. I transcribed the first four (unaccompanied) bars of BG pt. 1 and immediately absorbed two contrasting principles: harmonic (playing from the chord) and modal (superimposing a blues or minor penta scale over the chord).That was all I needed, then I was on my own; some extensive experimenting with the two approaches helped me form my blues style on the mando.

Sorry to derail the thread here, but I feel inclined to respond to Ralph... I completely understand that bluegrass comes from a non-notation history, but it's 2013, not 1945, and the bottom line is that notation allows people to learn more efficiently. Why not take advantage of that? Take modern Monroe-style master Mike Compton... he's got a million charts of Monroe tunes and solos transcribed note-for-note (in tab and notation ) that he uses to teach people Monroe-style. He could just as easily take folks' $30 and tell them to "go listen and learn for yourself, that's the bluegrass way", but he's a good teacher and understands that transcriptions help people analyze and learn faster. You say that you've never crosspicked on the mandolin... well, if you ever have any interest in really learning McReynolds' style, I guarantee you're gonna be happy some folks put this stuff down on paper. I've got hundreds of hours of transcription time under my belt, and I can honestly say that McReynolds' style crosspicking is one of the hardest mandolin styles to transcribe on the planet. Even proficient mandolin players with lots of melodic transcription experience are going to struggle getting McReynolds down on paper correctly without some reference or guidance... so much of it is counter-intuitive. While I understand where you're coming from, that bluegrass should just be learned by ear and approximated... from a teaching and performing standpoint, it makes so much more sense to put this stuff into notation where it can be analyzed, learned, and communicated correctly. As the late, great John McGann once said: "Specific sounds sometimes require specific techniques. Anything else is an approximation. Life is short, so either 'close enough' is OK, or life is too short for 'close enough'".

I think life is too short for close enough. YMMV.

[ralph johansson]

tabedit files let you "show" the tab rendition or the standard notion rendition. If you can read, just forgo the tab view and select the standard notation view. . . or view both at the same time if you want.

f-d

Also, at least the first time, turn off all notation and just listen to the MIDI, and see how much of the structure and development you can grasp by just listening. That will make it much easier to understand the score regardless of the mode of notation.

[pickloser]

To quote Jordan, "go listen and learn for yourself, that's the bluegrass way."
I get this from some (thankfully few) teachers at Kaufman camp. Then we proceed to spend the next hour or so learning a tune the class could get in 10 minutes or less with either tab or notation. And at that, most don't get the tune anyway, since you hear the line once and right after there's a sound jumble of everybody else trying to get that line, which obliterates recollection of the original line. While the listen and play or Murphy Method may be fine alone at home or in a field or from a DVD or one-on-one (still, not my fave), in a class setting, it makes me crazy.

Sorry to futher skew this thread, but tradition is sometimes just rationalization, I think.

[AlanN]

I dig both. As Ralph said, looking at a score lets you see the overall flow of the piece, tab tells me where to put the fangers. Last night, was working through the Tiny Moore book, he included both, one above the other. Niles' books, same. Grisman, same. It's all good, I just wanna pick Rawhide like the big dogs...

[ralph johansson]

What I meant was, it takes no time to learn how it works and understand it, unlike standard notation. The stuff you're on about, I'd more call general musical ability and knowledge, rather than fluency in understanding the notation (to use an analogy, someone can be a fluent reader but not be able to recognise recurring themes in a novel, or understand things the author is trying to imply); and I think that one of the drawbacks of tab is is isn't suited particularly to this kind of learning, and more a matter of just telling you where to put your finger.

Well, I think it's the difference between spelling your way through a text or actually reading it. You can't play from a score by looking at one note at a time, you got see where you're headed for. In fact, owing to poor eye-sight I much prefer to learn the tune first and then play it. I will usually not play it the way it's written - I may not even play it in the same key. Seemsd that jrfamsey has learned to actually read tab - that's quite a feat, Whenther it was woth the trouble only he can tell. When I started playing the guitar there was not tab to learn from and I'm happy I spent some time learning grand staff - a well-written piano score often conveys a more complete picture of the music.
(Also happy I didn't know about capos and learn the keys in systematic order going from C along the circle of fdifths in both directions).

And on mandolin I just started playing, exploring the fretboard. I certainly know where all the notes are in most keys, but notation never meant much to me on that instrument.

[August Watters]

Sorry to futher skew this thread, but tradition is sometimes just rationalization, I think.

It's worth questioning what "tradition" means anyway. Bill Monroe grew up in a music notation-reading world; his family members read from songbooks and hymnals which were understood more widely than today. The reason Monroe didn't learn to read standard notation was due to his poor eyesight.

I think it's fair to say that all the great musicians we learn from made the most of the opportunities available.

[JeffD]

I can read music ...

My question: Is this something I should switch over to, from an emphasis standpoint? Is there an inherent benefit to tabs if I can already read music or stick to notation?

I would not "switch", but there are circumstances where tab has advantages.

I love wading into tunebooks and bumping into cool stuff I haven’t heard before. In old time music there are a lot of tunes played in cross tunings. When I am playing in cross I find it easier to get a tune from tab. Reading standard notation in cross is really really irritating, and can get me to stuttering and foaming.

A more common circumstance that argues for tab is when learning a transcription. My notation reading and sight reading is strong, but its strongest in first position. (My musical education started with woodwinds, where there is a distinction between “fingerings” and “alternate fingerings”. Not as true for stringed instruments, but you come from where you come from.). I am not as good sight reading music most easily played up the neck. Tab is great when you want to know how the heck Sierra Hull does it.


As has been pointed out, there is no “vs”. There are advantages to both and everything you don’t know will bite you in the tail piece.

[catmandu2]

I think it's fair to say that all the great musicians we learn from made the most of the opportunities available.

As the hot young players I play with say, "why not?" (use all resources at your disposal)

Re tab: it may not be as useful/effective in mandolin (relatively smaller range--limited fingering options), but it's prevalent in guitar and lute literature (evidence of lute tablature survives from the early 16 C.)...since tab provides precise fingering it is also a guide to performance

[MandoTyro]

What about the ABC notation? This is very strange and I find it unusual that another transcription method is needed or used.

[JeffD]

I learned about ABC notation and I always thought it was merely for music printing software. I was absolutely surprised when I learned that there are folks that play from ABC.

[neil argonaut]

What about the ABC notation? This is very strange and I find it unusual that another transcription method is needed or used.

It's needed because the other two aren't as computer-friendly; for what it is it works very well; however, although I'm sure like JeffD says, there are folk who play with it, I wouldn't bother learning it; there's a good converter from ABC to PDF's of standard notation here.

[Mandophyte]

All you need to know about ABC, see my siganture below.

[ralph johansson]

jramsey raises a number of interesting questions. I'm curious what August Watters, as a professor in ear training, has to say about the role of notation, and the increased availability of transcriptions. When I started out on the guitar in 1957 (the mandolin came 10 years later) I already knew standard notation in G clef. I had absorbed the system in music classes. Of course, that skill immediately gave me access to a lot of material and in those days sheet music was much cheaper than records. Notation also was a gateway towards theoretical understanding. For instance, since one my friends played saxophones, first the tenor then the baritone, I learned to play from his Bb and Eb books - because I understood notation as a represesntation of music, not fingers.

But unfortunately I didn't rely on my ears at all. If I had had the nerve, and money, to take lessons, a good teacher might have aided me a bit in ear training, but for better or worse I'm entirely self-taught on both my instruments. Only when I began to take interest in folk, old-time, and Bluegrass music did I rely more on my ears, simply because I had to. And, since Bluegrass is a group music I had to use my ears to play reasonably well with others. I never regretted that. For a short while I tried to learn the 5-string banjo and I learned a lot by slowing down Earl Scruggs to half speed - that's when I really understood how those rolls were constructed and how he used the fifth string. I even rediscovered melodic style which is really counter-intuitive.

Crosspicking. Ultimately it's a matter of taste. To me it's a device, to Jesse and his disciples it's a method. When I hear something like that on record I ask myself, what's the idea, what's the system, how does he do it, and what can I do with it. Then I'm on my own. You could compare to tremolo, I suppose. To classic players it's a default technique, to me it's an expressive device to be used when it expresses something. Continuous tremolo is not my bag at all; and it's the same with cross-picking, 3 notes determining the next 15. It's really nice to hear someone who masters it, like Statman, but to me it doesn't have the snap that I'm striving for.

[Bertram Henze]

What about the ABC notation? This is very strange and I find it unusual that another transcription method is needed or used.

ABC solves the old problem how to separate content from layout. It can be converted to any of the other readable forms, such as notation, but you can change it with any old text editing tool.

Example: I want to learn an Irish jig, say Calliope House. I get the ABC from thesession.org, but whoever posted it there packed all of his personal instrument-dependent ornamentation in as well, which I don't want. So I replace his triplets with quarter notes, directly inside the drop field of the concertina site Neil has posted a link to, and do whatever else I need to customize it for my purposes; then I generate standard notation and repeat until it looks like what I want. No tab or notation editors are harmed in the process.

So, ABC's not for reading, it's for PROGRAMMING

[The dman]

Also the very simple yet great thing about standard is that it visually depicts when notes go up or down. Yet another reason I find sight reading standard much easier.

Agreed and I never thought about the visual aspect. Tabs drive me crazy, give me music and I'm good

[lukmanohnz]

I am mostly self-taught, never learned to sight-read standard notation well for pitch but I can read it easily for note duration/timing/syncopation. I wish I had persevered and developed comprehensive skill at sight reading standard notation, but that ship has sailed. TAB was more straightforward for my brain to process, and the time it would require for me to develop fluent sight reading of pure standard notation is time I'd rather spend enjoying playing music and learning new songs. I prefer the instructional books that include both TAB and standard notation, and that seems to be the norm these days especially for folk, bluegrass, blues, and rock instructional books - classical not so much (though more and more is becoming available). TablEdit and other similar notation software makes it easy for me to create my own sheet music with both TAB and standard notation. Through years of study and practice I have become adept at 'sight reading' this dual-system form of music notation. TAB also provides an intuitive system for notating fretted instrument-specific dynamics such as hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, bends, trills, whammy bar (has anyone ever seen a mandolin with a whammy bar??), etc.

[O'Riabh]

Maybe the wrong thread: I prefer music notation and have been searching for an arrangement for mandolin of Bach Sonata #1 4th Mvt Gm Presto including fingering.

[ralph johansson]

TAB also provides an intuitive system for notating fretted instrument-specific dynamics such as hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, bends, trills, whammy bar (has anyone ever seen a mandolin with a whammy bar??), etc.

How does that system differ from that used in standard notation, and what makes it more intuitive? (And, again, who wants all that instrument-specific detail?)

[russintexas]

(And, again, who wants all that instrument-specific detail?)

This. I have one set of music. I don't have different charts for mandolin, guitar, and piano.

[August Watters]

Maybe the wrong thread: I prefer music notation and have been searching for an arrangement for mandolin of Bach Sonata #1 4th Mvt Gm Presto including fingering.

I've heard Joe Brent is working on this and is planning to publish soon. For myself, I prefer to explore the possibilities, and then upon choosing one just write in a fingering here or there to remind me next time. I encourage people to follow this process, to explore the timbral possibilities - rather than follow someone else's fingerings. Is there a trouble spot you're thinking of?

[Jim Garber]

I agree with August and usually prefer the urtext versions. the S&Ps are readily available all over and even for free download. There are many editions with later annotations for violin fingering and dynamics but sometimes even violinists differ in that respect. One person's choice of fingering does not always work of others.

[lukmanohnz]

How does that system differ from that used in standard notation, and what makes it more intuitive? (And, again, who wants all that instrument-specific detail?)

I don't know that one system is any more or less intuitive than the other. I wasn't trying to make a value judgment, but for me TAB was easier to learn when I started out. As a guitarist, the instrument-specific symbols in TAB helped me figure out how to play things I heard on recordings. I truly wish I'd developed sight reading skill for standard notation way back when. If I had, perhaps I'd consider that system easier to read. Oh well, luckily there's more music available in TAB than I could ever hope to learn in my lifetime, and I have a way to transcribe the music I compose.

[ralph johansson]

I don't know that one system is any more or less intuitive than the other. I wasn't trying to make a value judgment, but for me TAB was easier to learn when I started out. As a guitarist, the instrument-specific symbols in TAB helped me figure out how to play things I heard on recordings. I truly wish I'd developed sight reading skill for standard notation way back when. If I had, perhaps I'd consider that system easier to read. Oh well, luckily there's more music available in TAB than I could ever hope to learn in my lifetime, and I have a way to transcribe the music I compose.

If you look up words like trill, mordent, glissando, appoggiatura, legato in, e.g., Wikipedia, I believe you'll find that the notational devices used in SN are very intuitive - they may even be the same as in TAB. HO's and PO's are conveniently indicated by legato arcs; the only exception I can think of is hammering on a note on a string/course without picking that string/course first. I occasionally use that device on guitar but not on mandolin.

[Tom Cherubini]

For someone who reads music notation, deciding to "learn" tabs is like a bike racer deciding to use a three-wheeler. Aside from the very occasional need to see how another player laid out his fingering for a piece or exercise, why would you want to?
I have found that while a figure can often be played in several locations on a guitar neck, a mandolin doesn't enjoy this flexibility, so complicated melody lines (as in classical music) often have to be inverted or the key changed to get it to lie well on the fretboard.

[August Watters]

I'm curious what August Watters, as a professor in ear training, has to say about the role of notation, and the increased availability of transcriptions.

Well, thanks for asking. I'm really excited about the increased availability of written music, both new and old. Historical works are being recovered, new music for mandolin is being written, and exploring written music as an arranger is also a rich, creative place to be. It's a great time to be a reading mandolinist!

I think standard notation and tablature both have their place. I usually use both for teaching, to be understood. But I sense your question is about the value of learning to read standard notation, so, without writing a book here, let me convey a few ideas I try to get across in teaching:

1) standard notation can be easily learned, and someone fluent in SN has little need for tablature;
2) a dual system with tablature and SN can be useful for short ideas, but page turns soon get in the way;
3) Mentally "hearing" SN used to be a standard subject for school children, and in some parts of the world, still is. Children easily transfer this skill to reading SN on instruments;
4) standard notation is too often taught by connecting to instrumental technique, rather than to the ear, limiting its value;
5) whether improvising or reading, we should work toward mentally "hearing" the sound. The fingerings self-generate from your knowledge of the fingerboard. Often this is the opposite of the process when we were beginners - reading the tab (or SN) and producing the sound as a byproduct of fingering.

Or to graph that last point:

"sound" < Fingerings
NOT
fingerings < sound