OM vs Irish Bouzouki

[Goodin]

Now what would you call a 4 course instrument with a 24" scale?
The only place I've heard the word "Blarge" was applied to Donal Lunny's instrument.

I would probably call that a bouzouki. I think a shorter scale instrument more likely used for melody to be called an octave mandolin/cittern and a longer scale instrument more likely used for accompaniment to be called a bouzouki/blarge. 24" seems a bit of a stretch to play melody for most people so I would call that a bouzouki. This is obviously open for interpretation.

Andy built the first long scale (~27") bouzouki with a low 5th course for Donal in the early 1970's. Donal dreampt up the idea and had Andy build it and thus the first blarge as they named it was born (blarge = bouzouki + extra bass course or bouzouki large). I think since Donal/Andy named the first kind of this instrument that's what it should be called, just as Sobell recycled "cittern" to be used for the shorter scale 5 course bouzouki type instrument that he was building back then. What I don't like to hear is someone calling a long scale 5 course instrument a cittern. Call it a 5 course bouzouki or blarge. Of course, that's just my opinion but I do tip my hat and pay respects to the originators and call the instrument what they would prefer it to be called.

[zoukboy]

<snip> ...just as Sobell recycled "cittern" to be used for the shorter scale 5 course bouzouki type instrument that he was building back then. What I don't like to hear is someone calling a long scale 5 course instrument a cittern. Call it a 5 course bouzouki or blarge. Of course, that's just my opinion but I do tip my hat and pay respects to the originators and call the instrument what they would prefer it to be called.

I am with you there, except for one tiny point: Sobell applied the term "cittern" to his short scale, open tuned instruments regardless of whether they had either 4 or 5 courses. It is only in the last 20 years or so that the term is being used almost exclusively for 5 course instrument regardless of scale length.

One other niggling point: Sobell chose the term "cittern," because of a cursory *visual* similarity between what he was building and the historical instrument. (There are many, many actual differences, though.) But with "bouzouki," that term is used in Irish music because the first bouzoukis introduced were Greek bouzoukis, and the first "Irish bouzoukis" were very conscious adaptations of that instrumental concept.

:-)

[Eddie Sheehy]

I had a 10-string Joe Foley instrument that was 17" wide and the label read BLARZ...
For my own sanity I refer to:
10-string instruments as Citterns (with the exception of my 10-string Vega cylinderback 15"-scale which I refer to as a mandolute).
8-string instruments longer than 24"-scale are Bouzoukis
-- 8-string instruments longer than 24"-scale as Octave Mandolins
--- 8-string instruments longer than 14"-scale as Mandolas

Regardless of tuning...

[zoukboy]

I had a 10-string Joe Foley instrument that was 17" wide and the label read BLARZ...

Hey Eddie,

"BLARZ" sounds Breton :-)

[Goodin]

Roger - I wasn't aware Sobell called even his four course instruments citterns. That seems to further confuse things!

Aghghghhh Eddie see that makes me cringe that you call the long scale 5 course instrument a cittern! I am speculating but would think that BLARZ on your Foley is a variant of the Blarge. I believe Foley was influenced alot by Manson as is evident by his headstock design, and hearsay. More evidence to back up my thought that Blarge deserves the rightful exclusive definition of a long scale 5 course Irish type bouzouki.

[Goodin]

I will try not to loose sleep over the Blarge/Cittern debate . I do know lots of players who call the long scale 5 course instrument a cittern, so perhaps in 100 years from now that will be what it's exclusively called. However, my 2010 5 course 27" scale Manson reads "BLARGE" on the label so Andy still calls it that. And thats what I call the 5 course long scale zouks I build, so Im sticking to it!

[zoukboy]

I will try not to loose sleep over the Blarge/Cittern debate . I do know lots of players who call the long scale 5 course instrument a cittern, so perhaps in 100 years from now that will be what it's exclusively called. However, my 2010 5 course 27" scale Manson reads "BLARGE" on the label so Andy still calls it that. And thats what I call the 5 course long scale zouks I build, so Im sticking to it!

I hear you. I played long scale 5 course instruments for about 10 years and grew very weary of people calling them "citterns." It's not the reason I switched to 4 course instruments exclusively in 2004 - the real issue was sound and response - but I don't mind that I no longer have to deal with the "cittern" vs bouzouki debate.

[Bertram Henze]

The existence of the mandocello is suggesting that not only number of strings and scale length determine a name, but also the tuning. So should we call a GDAD 26" 8-stringer different from an ADAD 26" 8-stringer, maybe "zoug" vs. "zouka" ?

The number of strings has made me number and number over the years, so I have come to call the 10-stringer a 10-stringer and leave it at that

Now back to playing my GDAE 21" 8-stringer.

[Goodin]

That's probably a good idea Bertram! Circumvent the debate!

[zoukboy]

That's probably a good idea Bertram! Circumvent the debate!

:-))))))

[Eddie Sheehy]

Hey Eddie,

"BLARZ" sounds Breton :-)

Take it up with Joe... It was a 1989 build... Joe seemed to think it might have been for Jimmy Crowley but Joe's always been a busy man...

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have a 10-string Phil Crump C-III (Cittern)... 26" scale, CCGGDDAAEE... Phil designates his Bouzoukis B and his Citterns C...

"A rose by any other name is still a rose"

[zoukboy]

Take it up with Joe...

Wasn't trying to offend you, Eddie! :-)

[Eddie Sheehy]

No offence taken, Roger. I was just trying to say that when there are more than two descriptions for an instrument then the builder has the last say.

[TheArimathean]

I have a 10-string Phil Crump C-III (Cittern)... 26" scale, CCGGDDAAEE... Phil designates his Bouzoukis B and his Citterns C...

"A rose by any other name is still a rose"

1st, (no offense meant to you at all Eddie) I believe the quote goes "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
2nd, CCGGDDAAEE sound's like 5-course 'cello to me... but I think the sounds matters more than the name

[Eddie Sheehy]

Again, no offence taken, but you can take it up with Phil Crump. BTW, my paraphrase is exactly what I meant...

[Goodin]

I was just trying to say that when there are more than two descriptions for an instrument then the builder has the last say.

That's what I'm saying too. Obviously I'm a huge Manson fan.

[Jim Yates]

My friend Ian has a six course long scale Sobell. What would that be called?

Another source of confusion is "Mandola". Some think of it as the mando-family equivalent of the Viola, tuned CGDA, while others use the word to describe an octave mandolin.
I've also heard the term "octave mandola" used to describe not an instrument an octave below a mandola, which seems to make sense, but an octave below a mandolin.

[Goodin]

My friend Ian has a six course long scale Sobell. What would that be called?

Another source of confusion is "Mandola". Some think of it as the mando-family equivalent of the Viola, tuned CGDA, while others use the word to describe an octave mandolin.
I've also heard the term "octave mandola" used to describe not an instrument an octave below a mandola, which seems to make sense, but an octave below a mandolin.

I also have a friend who has a six course Sobell. He calls it a cittern. I believe it is a shorter scale..24" maybe 25"? I will see him in a few weeks and discuss.

Yes the octave mandola term indeed confuses things further and it makes no sense to me.

[zoukboy]

My friend Ian has a six course long scale Sobell. What would that be called?

Brian McNeill had the first one of those back in 1984 (if memory serves). He called it "The Tank." ;-)

[Goodin]

Brian McNeill had the first one of those back in 1984 (if memory serves). He called it "The Tank." ;-)

I think he had that one at Swannanoa last year. It was indeed a tank!

[belbein]

SweetPea, if you want to come down to God's Country, I know that Maple Street in Atlanta has an OM hiding out on the guitar racks.

Don't know about the IB stretch or guitar, but I can tell you that my OM stretches my fingers and my left arm very noticeably further than my regular mando.

[Sweetpea44]

Thanks for all the conversations. :-) I'm leaning more toward the OM because of the scale length.

[zoukboy]

Thanks for all the conversations. :-) I'm leaning more toward the OM because of the scale length.

What do you want to play on the instrument? Also, what styles/players are you listening to that have led to your interest in the instrument?

I ask this because I have taught many players who come to the Irish bouzouki from mandolin and want to try and maintain some continuity of tuning/concept - nothing wrong with that, but many, many times these players are actually listening to Irish players who are not playing in octave mandolin tuning.

[Sweetpea44]

I would like to play traditional Irish tunes .... some jigs and reels. But, I'm open to different styles. I have a Weber mando that I mostly play bluegrass on, and a 5-string emando that I just goof around on (my husband and I made it from a kit). So, I was looking into a 'different' instrument to add to the mix.