scottish tunes question

[Werner Jaekel]

These days I am concentrating on transcribing tunes from Allen Fergusen posted on soundcloud and youtube. There is such a great number of beautiful tunes. I listen to them, slow them down with audacity and then write them down. So far I managed Hectors Return, Highlanders Farewell, Rolling Hills of Western Ross,John MacCalls Farewell to the Scottish Horse, Cabar Feidh, Donald Cameron, Maggie Cameron, Redcastle Reel, Barn Owls of Brahan, Black Dog across the Firth, Stills of Ferintosh. Ord Hill is still a puzzle to me. But not for long.

Between listening and writing I noticed something puzzling me. In Donald Cameron (P/M H. MacKay) i.e. 1st bar the staff shows an f ( 1st on e-sting) but the f sharp ( 2nd on e-string)is played. The key signature is in C. Same with c (3rd a-string) where c sharp ( 4th on a string) is played, 5th bar. Is this shift due to a particular scale or why is it ? I noticed these shifts before with different tunes, contradicting the given key signature.

https://soundcloud.com/allanferg/donald-cameron

Outing myself as a layman in music theory , but ok. With your kind help I may become a bit wiser.

(Some of the titles mentioned are compositions and copyright by Allen Ferguson. So I will be reluctant to present my notes without his permission.)

One more : Is there any free original piping sheetmusic for Maggie Cameron ? For the twiddly bits.

Thank you.

Werner

[AP8221]

Pipe music doesn't show the accidental (black on a piano) notes in the A mix scale which pipes play as the c sharp and f sharp are the notes sounded by the correct fingering on the chanter.

[Niall Anderson]

For Maggie Cameron, this may work
http://www.folktunefinder.com/tune/17600/

Otherwise search for the tune name at folktunefinder.com, and look for the first version that shows pipe ornamentation. That one is taken from the Scots Guards collection, which is a standard of sorts. I'm not sure that the image is displaying correctly, though - you might want to try the ABC somewhere else or download abc explorer...

[Werner Jaekel]

Niall Anderson
Thank you. Found Maggie Cameron. Very useful link.

AP8221, thank you.
Could you elaborate on this point, please ? The staff does not show any key signature, no flats, no sharps. So it should be in C major. But it is not. Trying to learn from chanters by ear is very difficult, because of the key they use. It does not match with my mandolin. Allen Ferguson ist playing these shifts and it sounds more correct than following the staff. I looked up Hal Leonards Mandolin Scale Finder where C Mix is confirming the original staff, with C being the root ( 3rd on A ). What is this about the fingering on the chanter ? To your knowledge, which key is used for Donald Cameron piping ? I found the notation on the internet. Maybe it is not correct.

[Niall Anderson]

Werner,

The tradition in publishing music for the Highland Bagpipe has been to omit key signatures, because the pipe chanter is essentially limited to nine (and only nine) notes - G natural, A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G natural, A from low to high. Thus pipers talk about playing a C, when actually they are playing a C# (leaving aside the issue that the big pipes transpose up to Bb or higher - sorry, lots of complications here). Pipers don't really need to worry about key signatures because they are stuck in one place! So, if what you see is a piece of music intended for pipers, it should be interpreted as having two sharps (C and F), and played appropriately. That's what you will usually hear if you are listening to a fiddler playing a pipe tune or someone playing bellows-blown pipes (smallpipes or border pipes, which are usually pitched in concert A - thus the sounds match the notes).

Again apologies for all this - the piping community does its own thing, and until recently hasn't really expected non-pipers to be trying to play the music, I think!

Hope that helps. Good luck, and do ask if there's anything else I can help with (feel free to message me if you prefer).

[John Kelly]

Niall has explained the situation very well here, Werner. The bagpipe music, if you are working from that, will show all the embellishments a piper might play in a tune, and many of those are unique to the pipes. Remember that a piper will always have a note playing (plus the A bass and tenor drones) as a result of the way the instrument is made - a big bag full of air is pumping that air down the drones and chanter all the time and so the note cannot be cut off the way a brass player or others can do. The piper uses the embellishments to compensate in some ways as well as to add to the tune. Many of the young pipers at the cutting edge of modern piping are exploring ways of bending notes and adding other embellishments - and in many cases they are not especially welcomed by many traditionalists, but that is as it always has been. Have a listen to anything by Fred Morrison for examples of modern piping.

When we play from pipe scores we just know to sharpen the C and F and keep the G natural. When a piper plays Scottish tunes not written for the pipes he will by default play all the G notes as naturals, though we will be playing G sharps where the key is in A major.

Yhe abc files you have got from me ( I think it is you!) are from pipe scores but modified by me or others to suit our strings.
As Niall says, feel free to mail us and we might be able to help you further.

[Werner Jaekel]

At last ! Got it !

Thank you very much, Niall and John. Now I understand what puzzled me for a long time. You two explained it very well.

The reason why I am concentrating on Allen Fergusons music is the way he is maintaining the "scottishness" and the impression of the pipe's character in his fiddle interpretation, and the way he is using embellishment and twiddly bits ( love this word), incorporating even his own wherever he sees fit to do so. This is the way I want to do it on the mandolin.

By concentrating at slow speed on the nitty gritty and writing down each note I am learning alot

He told me about an interesting page http://www.pipetunes.ca/.

Yes, John, thank you for the abc files.

[Werner Jaekel]

one more question : the chanter's key does not match the mandolins'. Try to learn from the pipes by ear is rather difficult, it never sounds right. How should I set the capo on the octav mandolin gdae to follow the pipes ? Following Niall's explanation it should be G, but it is still sounding queer. Or is it the poor quality digitilisation ?

[Jacob]

Perhaps this may help. The Pitch and Scale of the Great Highland Bagpipe
"The precise frequencies of the notes on the chanter do not match those of a piano, guitar, or standard Western wind instruments."

[Bertram Henze]

I guess the highland pipes, being supposed to play alone or among other highland pipes, can afford to sport just intonation. This is a set of intervals based on overtones, i.e. rational ratios of frequencies (e.g. 3/2, 5/4 etc.) against one base note. Such an instrument is not good at playing together with a just-intonated instrument of a different base note or an instrument of equal temperament tuning (such as the piano or our fretted instruments).

There have been bands with mixed instrumentation who had a piper (Tannahill Weavers, Kentigern come to mind), but I guess a piper can tweak a tone if it is too far off the general equal-tempered environment.

There's a lot of guessing I am doing here...

[Ronny]

As Niall said, the bagpipe transpose to Bb, so the scale is :
Bb C D Eb F G A Bb, with a low Bb...
But now the A frequency isn't 440Hz, but it tend to be around 450 Hz (last summer, when I played at the Festival Interceltique de Lorient for the piping contest, pipes were around 448Hz to ensure stability of the sound).

[Dagger Gordon]

Remember also that there are different types of Scottish pipes.

The main ones you might hear in pipe bands are usually called Highland pipes, or big pipes, or The Great Highland Bagpipe. These need to be blown by the mouth.

However there has been a revival in recent years of bellows-blown pipes. As far as I know the fingering is exactly the same.

The big pipes are tuned somewhere around Bb, but this may not always be exactly the case. If the piper know he needs to play with other instruments he may try to get them tuned exactly, but if he is playing on his own he doesn't really need to worry about it.
If that is the case, you could put a capo on the first fret and play the tunes as if they were in A and D rather than Bb or Eb.
The various types of bellows pipes - Border pipes, Scottish small pipes etc - are more user friendly for playing with instruments like the accordion as they are usually tuned to A and are not so loud.

If you were playing a pipe tune in the key of A, you would refer to it as being in A although strictly speaking it might be played in Bb.

[Niall Anderson]

one more question : the chanter's key does not match the mandolins'. Try to learn from the pipes by ear is rather difficult, it never sounds right. How should I set the capo on the octav mandolin gdae to follow the pipes ? Following Niall's explanation it should be G, but it is still sounding queer. Or is it the poor quality digitilisation ?

As Dagger said, capo'ing at first fret should get you more or less there, but the individual set of pipes you are listening to may be tuned slightly sharp of Bb (see comments from others regarding this issue). I guess you then have to sharpen the tuning of each individual string so that you bring the whole octave mandolin up to the pitch of the pipes. To get a sense of where the pipes are, see if you can match your A course once capo'ed (starting with GDAE at standard pitch) to the drones, then set the rest of your strings so your instrument is in tune. That's about the best you can manage (and should be close enough for most purposes).

[Niall Anderson]

The other thing to mention is that the pipe scale is really based on the low A to high A octave (based on the written notation), with a "leading note" of low G natural below that. The drones therefore tune to that key note, A, and the pipes "work" harmonically around that. Thus, the most common keys/ modes for pipe tunes as written work out as A (Mixolydian mode = Major scale with G natural instead of G#) and D Ionian (= standard Major scale).

Not sure if that's useful additional information... Too much?

[Werner Jaekel]

so much information in one thread, and exactly what I wanted to know. No, the information is not too much. With all these details I get the picture and it is all adding up.

There are a few examples on youtube, but rarely using the Great Highland Bagpipe, rather the Uilleann pipes, Northumbrian or Scottish Small Pipes , like in "The High Drive".

I noticed in massed piping competitions there is one person going around checking each instrument's intonation. So there must be a way to influence the pitch within a certain range, like Dagger said" to get them tunes exactly". And soloists probably choose the pitch which they prefer, anything from 450 to 480 Hz.

I might be the discrepancy in pitch and scale to "equal temperament" what makes the pipes so powerful to me, giving me the goosebumps each time when I hear them playing. Small wonder they led the way into battle.

"Pipe music does not require this ability to modulate to different keys. The nine notes available on the chanter are fixed, the chanter melody is played against the unchanging tone of the drones, and traditional pipe music does not involve harmony-playing between chanters. Thus, we are able to trade in harmonic flexibility for much enhanced purity of tuning. "http://publish.uwo.ca/~emacphe3/pipes/acoustics/pipescale.html

Yet these massed pipebands sound so clear and precise like one instrument.

Now I also understand the limited range of notes used in notation for pipes. And how the composition is successfully compensating for this, and, as John said, "a big bag full of air is pumping that air down the drones and chanter all the time and so the note cannot be cut off the way a brass player or others can do. The piper uses the embellishments to compensate in some ways as well as to add to the tune."

I am grateful for this insight in scottish music, finding it even more interesting now.

So from now on I will not have to use the rubber so much but put in the correct note straight away. I know now what to look out for.

Thank you.

[John Kelly]

Put a capo at the first fret, Werner, as Dagger et al have said, and play your chords as you'd do if un-capoed - that sounds really obscure! When you watch any of the pipe bands tuning nowadays there is usually one of the band members going around with an electronic tuner getting the drones into tune and pitch. The top bands, in fact I'd guess most of the bands in the top 2 or three grades, will have matching chanters precision-turned to ensure they are all producing the same sound, then the drones will be brought into line to suite the chanters, this being done by sliding the drones in their mounts to adjust the pitch - a bit like a trumpet player can slide part of the trumpet to adjust its pitch.
Now this ia what I call a thread!

[Werner Jaekel]

still digging ......

http://qanda.themacleods.net/qanda/skmqa019.htm
Quote:
"What musical key does the bagpipe play in?

This is a very confusing point for many people. It's sad to say that many amateur musicians (read "most pipers"!) do not know the difference between the tuning pitch and the key. Terrible mistakes can result from this misunderstanding. It's generally only an issue when bagpipers try to play with guitars, organs, orchestras or other bands.

I know of pipers who've told orchestras that they'd be happy to play Amazing Grace in B-flat with the orchestra. .................. This can lead to very embarrassing situations and can potentially ruin a musical program. Please read on to find out why this DOESN'T WORK.

For the benefit of all, it must be known that the key of the instrument is not necessarily the pitch to which it is tuned.

The low A on the modern chanter of great highland bagpipe (and the drones) are commonly tuned to above concert B flat, which is 466.16 Hz. With the application of some tape and a bit of adjustment of the reeds, the instrument can be adjusted such that low A on the chanter (and the drones) vibrate at 466.16 Hz. This is a concert B-flat tuning of the instrument, but it is not necessarily the key.

(Please note that most bagpipes today tune at 476 to 480 Hz! This is roughly halfway between B-flat and B. Setting up a concert B-flat bagpipe can be challenging. Setting up a concert A pitch instrument is difficult.).............."

"adjusts the tuning (with tape, sealing way, dowels, baling wire and other stuff)"

also like this one http://bagpipejourney.com/

Now I look for book with some interesting bagpipe scores, preferrably original versions by Donald Cameron etc

To me Allen Ferguson's "Maggie Cameron" is a good example to transcribe a bagpipe tune successfully, maintaining the character with the potential of the chromatic fiddle.
Another very good example is Dagger Gordons "Braes of Castlegrant" on the mandolin. Or "MacLean of Pennycross" again by Allen. And, and, and......and folks on Mandolin Cafe,of course....

Back to now and Maggie Cameron with Allen backing

[Werner Jaekel]

Hi John, we were posting simultaneously, it seems...

and baling wire

The pitch seems to be the point. But all I want to do is to learn bagpipe tunes by ear and to write them down, adding my own ideas in another script.

This morning I did Maggie Cameron from the score, but thought that this score might not be the original version as composed by Donald Cameron. A bit too silmplistic. I miss the B part as played in mid versions available.

missing in the score: (from http://www.folktunefinder.com/tune/17600/)
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | A/A/A c>e A/A/A (3agf |
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f |
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | A/A/A c>e A/A/A (3agf |

in

X: 2
T: Maggie Cameron
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: strathspey
K: A Mixolydian
d<f |
e2 c<A c<ec>A | e>cA>c c<ee<f |
e2 c<A c<ec>A | d>BG>B B<dd<f |
e2 c<A c<ec>A | e>cA>c e2 (3agf |
e>Ac>A (3cde c>A | d>BG>B B<dd<f ||
e<ac>a e>ac>a | (3gfe a>c c<ee<f |
e<ac>a e>fg>e | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f |
e<ac>a e>ac>a | (3gfe a>c e2 (3efg |
(3agf g>e (3fed e>c | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f ||
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | A/A/A c>e A/A/A (3agf |
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f |
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | A/A/A c>e A/A/A (3agf |
e>Ac>A (3cde c>A | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f ||
e<aa>g f>ea<b | a>fe>d (3cde e<f |
e<aa>g f>ea>c | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f |
e<aa>g f>ea<b | a>fe>d (3cde (3efg |
(3agf g>e (3fed e>c | (3dcB g>B B<d ||

Allen Ferguson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=occqyEq5CA8 is also omitting this part wich leaves me wondering wich one is the original. Though to me his version is perfect.

This is why I am looking for a book with bagpipe scores.

Another thing is that I discovered a pattern embellishments are used, as you said, for fading out the notes and to add to the composition. There is no way around studying scores , really.

Yes, this is a wonderful thread and I enjoy it. With so many knowledgeable and competent people onboard. Mandolin Cafe is great.

[Niall Anderson]

Many, many books of pipe tunes out there - try the online shops at the National Piping Centre or College of Piping (both in Glasgow) for some inspiration...

The other thing that may be useful is the following site

http://www.pipetunesearch.org/

which lets you enter a pipe tune name, then tells you which books of tunes it is in - so, for example, it says that Maggie Cameron is in Scots Guards Volume I, but also found in Willie Ross volume 2, Glendaruel Collection, Seumas MacNeill book 1 etc. That would let you track down a printed version by buying an appropriate book. You should note that the same tune can be arranged in different ways in different books, so to find an original you would need a collection by the composer, more than likely! Don't know if Donald Cameron published a collection of his own tunes, but the above shops may reveal this.

Maggie Cameron is a 4 part tune, I think (certainly in Scots Guards) so the problem you found above must be an error in the abc file - a few bars have been lost along the way. Sorry about that!

[Werner Jaekel]

Thank you, Niall. That's really a whole bunch of books of pipe tunes.

One of my daughters lives in Edinburgh. I would like her to bring me some pipe tune books when she comes for Christmas. I see you also live in Edinburgh. Can you tell me, please, where to go for the books ? I searched the internet. Scayles seems not no be the place.
They will probably have a limited selection. How about the Ross' book , vol 1 and 2 ? Or could you name one or two books ?

[Niall Anderson]

Hi again. Bagpipes Galore at 20 Haymarket Terrace is worth a try. At their previous shop on the High Street they had a good selection of books. Their website doesn't list quite as wide a range as I remember, but they may still have more in store. See www.bagpipe.co.uk. Blackwells bookshop on North Bridge might be worth a try too - they have some good music manuscripts and CDs there. I'm probably forgetting other obvious candidates, but will post again when I think of them.

Might be feasible to order from Glasgow but have stuff sent here to Edinburgh in the time available before Christmas?

In terms of books, I'd suggest the Scots Guards collection (I see a third volume has just been released, but can't see what is in it) for classic, common tunes played by bands and individual pipers all over the world. I would also strongly recommend Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection (6 volumes, plus there is a more recent collected set of 6 in one volume) - loads of brilliant tunes throughout. I don't have any of the Ross books, but you wouldn't go wrong with them - again, they are classics.

If you want tunes in an older, less band-influenced style (but lots of modern compositions) try Allan Macdonald's Moidart Collection (now 2 volumes, go for no.1 to start). Very different, plus pipe settings of some Irish tunes.

Lots to enjoy...

[Werner Jaekel]

Thank you, Niall.
I have chosen "Seaforth Highlanders" and the Moidart Collection 1 and 2. Reason is I want new stuff as many as possible. Many of the Scots Guards Books' titles I have in one way or another. And I still can get others later on.

Bagpipes Galore does not have Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection in stock.

For any odd ones I get them via http://www.pipetunes.ca/. Like Marion and Donald.

Luke Plumb and James Mackintosh present a nice version of that one on " A Splendid Notion". I just can't find the notation

I don't know, but could it be that notation to be played by large bands is different from the ones for solopipers ? And would this be reflected in the volumes by the Scots Guards ? A question only, this thought struck my mind while browsing for contents.

If you want tunes in an older, less band-influenced style

[Werner Jaekel]

digging deeper....

come across this page, about irish music

http://hspeek.home.xs4all.nl/dadgad/theory.html

"Chord Scales" and accompanying Irish dance music.Which Scales Are Relevant ?
I II III IV V VI VII I
Dmajor: D E F# G A B C# d
Gmajor: G A B C D E F# g

For the Dmajor scale it would result in:

root: D E F# G A B C#
3rd : F# G A B C# D E
5th : A B C# D E F# G

Dmajor =## similar to A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A

These 8 scales are the basis for Irish folk/dance music, and will lead us to deriving the appropriate chords for providing backup for this type of music. [Note: occasionally you will come across a tune in Amajor, a key which is not listed here. I've heard a theory (I think it was Arty McGlynn who told me this) that these tunes are not originally Irish, but imported from Scotland. The ideas presented here do not apply to such tunes ......................]

My question.

How much is scottish and irish music notation in general influenced by the scales of the pipes, irish = Uilleann pipes, scottish various bagpipes ?

why would a scale Amajor be more related to Scotland ?

A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A ? If the G were G#, then this would be an A Major scale

Is it because the the Big Highland ?

The first pipes in Ireland were like th e scottish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uilleann_Pipes and in D

Uileann= D, E♭, E, F♯, G, A, B, C, C♯, D' (also called "back D")though being fully chromatic commonly played in D.

If therer are only 2 scales relevant in irish music, how about scottish ? And have the pipes anything to do with this ?

This post is a bit confusing, to me also. Sorry. But maybe some person is out there who understands what I would like to know ? It it not purely theoretical.

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14684

[Niall Anderson]

Like Marion and Donald.

Luke Plumb and James Mackintosh present a nice version of that one on " A Splendid Notion". I just can't find the notation

I don't know, but could it be that notation to be played by large bands is different from the ones for solopipers ? And would this be reflected in the volumes by the Scots Guards ? A question only, this thought struck my mind while browsing for contents.

Looks like Marion and Donald is in the Seaforth collection, so that is taken care of...

Do you mean notation or repertoire in the above? I'm not terribly sure what bands do in terms of arrangements (never played in one) - they may simplify some elements to make it easier for the band to play together. The pipe major has the responsibility for arranging their sets, I think, so that might happen. Solo players may well change ornamentation a lot to add variety and show off technique, so perhaps not that unlike other instruments.

[Niall Anderson]

My question.

How much is scottish and irish music notation in general influenced by the scales of the pipes, irish = Uilleann pipes, scottish various bagpipes ?

why would a scale Amajor be more related to Scotland ?


Is it because the the Big Highland ?


If therer are only 2 scales relevant in irish music, how about scottish ? And have the pipes anything to do with this ?

I think there is probably a PhD thesis or two in answering these questions, but my (unresearched) view would be that Scottish repertoire has of course a big representation of pipe tunes, and because of how those are notated (see discussion above), that means a big influence of the A mixolydian mode. Of course, lots of pipe tunes are in D also, which is a great key for fiddle, so that's extremely common. Straight A major is great for fiddle (or mandolin) too, because of the AE top strings, so it's probably a combination of both these factors for A being common in Scottish music.

D and G are the common home keys for Uilleann pipes and tin whistle, thus that has a similar influence for Irish music (there are probably similar issues with Uilleanns with respect to transposing, given that older chanters were often in Bb or C, and many people still prefer the sound of those pitches and play them...). It's not really correct to say that these are the only 2 scales relevant to Irish music, more that these are probabaly the most common.

For more mandolin content in this thread, can I recommend the Scottish band Pipedown, whose line up is big pipes/ smallpipes, mandolin, guitar and percussion. They've got 2 very nice CDs out, and the chanters (big and small) played on the CD are both in concert Bb!