strings in tune but 6th fret instead of 7!

[Mandoak]

I made new bridge and nut for my mando to improve the sound and it did that but now I have a strange problem.
Each of the first 6 strings are tunned correctly and have perfect intonation checked at 12th fret but : 4th stings are like this:
Fret 0----1----2----3----4----5----6----7----8----9----10----11----12
Note G---A---A#---B----C---C#---D---D#--E----F-----F#----G-----G#


I have tried moving the bridge closer or further from the fingerboard but it casued other problems. The new bridge is one piece and I do not want to modify it before being sure if I should lower or rise it to solve the problem (if I go too low I have to scrap it and make another one). Any idea as what to do?
Thanks in advance.

[Marty Jacobson]

Yeah, well it's obvious what the problem is. You skipped B#! Get that back in there and your D will be in the right place.

*cough*

Actually, I suspect I know what the problem is, but if you post a picture of the bridge and an overview showing from nut to saddle it will help us to give you good feedback.

[Mandoak]

I am not that familiar with notes and you made me actualy check once again before realizing the B# thing !
Here are 2 photo from bridge and one from nut. Thanks for guiding an ignoramous beginner.

[Pete Summers]

I made new bridge and nut for my mando to improve the sound and it did that but now I have a strange problem.
Each of the first 6 strings are tunned correctly and have perfect intonation checked at 12th fret but : 4th stings are like this:
Fret 0----1----2----3----4----5----6----7----8----9----10----11----12
Note G---A---A#---B----C---C#---D---D#--E----F-----F#----G-----G#


I have tried moving the bridge closer or further from the fingerboard but it casued other problems. The new bridge is one piece and I do not want to modify it before being sure if I should lower or rise it to solve the problem (if I go too low I have to scrap it and make another one). Any idea as what to do?
Thanks in advance.

It is of course G# (1st fret) that is missing in that sequence, but it beats the devil out of me what the problem could be. I look forward to hearing some guesses from builders or set-up folks.

[Marty Jacobson]

Hah, that's funny! Right you are, Pete... I wasn't even looking at it that closely to see that, because for the bridge to be so far out of position that it would note dramatically off pitch, I was expecting to see the bridge at an angle, the saddle compensated backward (G furthest forward), or something like that.

Which it does not appear that you did, Mandoak. Visually, it looks pretty close from here.

So the next thing you should do is measure the distance from the nut to the E saddle on the bridge. Also to the G saddle.

Next, can you verify that the 6th fret on the G strings is indeed D using a guitar tuner? There are some good chromatic tuner smartphone apps or computer programs if you don't have anything accurate enough to give you a good reading.

If it were in my hands I'd check the intonation of each fret and see how far it creeps off pitch with each additional fret. From there, it is pretty easy deduction to see what need to change.

I do notice that you have a mixed set of strings on the instrument... that will make things difficult, as even if they are the same physical size, there is a difference in mass and stiffness between the monel and PB strings (or whatever it is you have on there).

[Willie Poole]

An A note should be on the second fret and not the first, it appears that he has the bridge too far towards the peg head causing everything to be one note high...I don`t see how the other three strings can be intonated correctly if that is the case, maybe the G string nut slots are too low and the string is riding on the first fret when open...I dunno, beats the h--l out of me....I would need it in my hands to figure it out....

[Willie Poole]

After thinking about this a while....Maybe he could have the wrong gauge string on the G course, like maybe a mandola string or something real heavy....again, I dunno....

Willie

[rockies]

It seems to me for it to be that far out of tune (one note) that it's not an intonation problem. I would wonder if the tuner is not being read properly on the open G and it's actually a G#. I can't conceive of a problem that would make a note read one semitone high in the distance of one fret, from G to an A (from nut to first fret) and the other strings tune OK ????
Dave

[Phil Goodson]

I made new bridge and nut for my mando to improve the sound and it did that but now I have a strange problem.
Each of the first 6 strings are tunned correctly and have perfect intonation checked at 12th fret but : 4th stings are like this:
Fret 0----1----2----3----4----5----6----7----8----9----10----11----12
Note G---A---A#---B----C---C#---D---D#--E----F-----F#----G-----G#


....

Well, first of all, you say that you have perfect intonation at the 12th fret, but your chart says that the 12th fret reads G# instead of G. Which is it? Oops. I see that you were talking about the other 3 courses when you said intonation was good.
Have you angled the bridge to make the G strings intone properly and then see how far out the D & A strings end up?

Does the string leave the nut in contact with the edge of the nut nearest the bridge? That is, are the slots sloping from the front edge down towards the tuners?

When you fret the G string at the 1st fret, is the string touching the 2nd fret because the frets have been dressed way too low?

[mirwa]

I recommend you check the notes again fret for fret, what you have there is not possible and makes no sense, there is no G# on fret 1 position, so you have to be tuning the string to G# open for the scenario you have

[Mike Bunting]

I think you need professional help. See a mando shop immediately.

[Bertram Henze]

I checked my calendar - it's definitely not April 1st. Now I am out of explanations.

[NAS]

Well that looks really odd, normaly I would have said G string nut slots too low so the string is stopped at the first fret instead of the nut, but that gives G, G, G sharp, A etc. It could still be a high fret / low nut problem. check with a short straight edge ideally one that will just cover thre frets or failing that a 6" metal rule.

[Jim Rowland]

A high fret or low nut slot or both,I think.
Jim

[mirwa]

Neither of those will give his scenario.

A high fret will simply mean you will see the same note twice - provided it does not buzz on the strum

In his picture you can see the strings have a down pull past the nut, which would rectify a low nut issue. Only fenders really suffer from missing a note, and thats when the string trees get lost, on that point a Low nut will mean his scale length will change, it will now be longer, the fret positions will remain the same but the notes wont match up, but they will still be in a chromatic climb. His notes match up too closely to a semitone for the scale length to be off.

Nothing explains getting a G and then an A, apart from writing it down incorrectly, physically for his instrument and the supplied photos its an impossible scenario.

[Mandoak]

Hello everybody
I did not want to add any more description before buying a proper tuner (previously I was using tuner on a small amplifier - micro crush - and might not have been perfetcly accurate).

At any rate, I removed the new bridge and put back the old one that came with the mando originally to test.

Now I am getting a different reading. Every string tunes properly up to 7 or 9 th fret but as we get close to 12th everything is going #. But this is uniform across the 8 strings at the same rate.

So I guess I have to bring the bridge back and forth without changing the height to correct. I am working on that.
Thank you all for your input.
Mandoak

[multidon]

If it intonates sharp up high like that consistently and moving the bridge back a smidge doesn't solve it then the action is likely too high, and lowering it will solve your problem. Start with 3/32 inch measured at the 12 fret and see how that does. I like mine at 1/16".

[Willie Poole]

a good tuner won`t cost much and if you had one you wouldn`t have had this problem...If you are going to be a picker you need to purchase one....I seen some Snarks on sale for $8.95 at the mandolin store...Check it out....

Willie

[Tavy]

Hello everybody
I did not want to add any more description before buying a proper tuner (previously I was using tuner on a small amplifier - micro crush - and might not have been perfetcly accurate).

At any rate, I removed the new bridge and put back the old one that came with the mando originally to test.

Now I am getting a different reading. Every string tunes properly up to 7 or 9 th fret but as we get close to 12th everything is going #. But this is uniform across the 8 strings at the same rate.

So I guess I have to bring the bridge back and forth without changing the height to correct. I am working on that.
Thank you all for your input.
Mandoak

Now we're getting somewhere - if the strings go sharp up the neck, move the bridge towards the tailpiece, if they go flat then move towards the nut. Obviously don't move it too far There will likely be a mark on the top where the bridge used to sit to guide you as to approximate placement.

Most folks will do this with just one G and one E string up to pitch (the rest slackened off). Then when those are in tune all the way up, tune up one D and one A as well, check again, make any final adjustments, and tune up the rest.

[mirwa]

That sounds way better.

If intonation is good to 6-7 and then goes sharp, then I concur with above, the string height needs to be lowered and then set your bridge position

[Mandoak]

I am glad to report that probelm is solved.
I moved the bridge closer to the fingerboard and lowered it as suggested. It took a bit of try and error but finaly everything was properly tuned.
Since this was puzzling everybody I have to add that the reading of notes with the first bridge was correct (the second tuner showed very much the same things). I had seen it happen in cases of a few cigarbox instruments and other such experiments in the past. Everytime the scale was very short (considerably shorter than usual scale of guitar or ukulele) I had hard time getting the right notes on the first 2 or 3 frets. So it is possible altough I have not figure out why. I am not a luthier and my wood working is folksy at best, so problem could be due to many factors in addition to what is logical.
Thank you all for your comments and suggestion, this surely is a wonderful place to learn.