science behind a mandolin "opening up"

[FLATROCK HILL]

Actually this isn't a list, that's part of your problem. It's a message board. You've posted two replies to this thread that were probably meant for other threads. If I could figure out were they belonged I would move them for you.

I guess that explains the 'sun', 'sea', and 'golden brown honey'. I thought I was loosing my marbles.

[Ivan Kelsall]

It makes me begin to wonder whether the 'opening up' process which i believe many of us subscribe to,is (maybe) more of a gradual process of acclimatisation to our homes' temperature & humidity over a period. I do remember vividly how both my instruments sounded when they first arrived at my home - tight & tinny !. Of course a lot of this was due to the fact that they'd been shipped up to me from TAMCO in Brighton,UK, 258 miles away. As they acclimatised to my home,their tone changed & 'opened up'.becoming much more open & full. They also do 'go to sleep'. Almost every day,when i take each one from it's case,they don't sound as loud or as full in tone as they do after an hour or so's playing. I believe temperature has a lot to do with this. Two Cafe members (who haven't posted for a long while) who also owned Weber Fern instruments,have both posted in the past on this. Both had been in situations,where,over a few hours their instruments had just become 'warmed up' literally, & the volume & tone had improved way beyond anything the owners had previously experienced. One member who'd taken his mandolin to a party,refused to leave when his wife wanted to go home because his mandolin had just taken on a whole new life. I've experienced this phenomena many times with both my instruments when practicing in a warm room over a period of hours.The tone becomes much more full & deeper & the volume increases quite dramatically. When it happens,there's no doubting that it has happened. I suppose that it will happen more often to those of us who's instruments are subject to wider temp.variations, such as myself. The room where i practice most is un-heated & can get pretty 'cool',the only heat that my mandolin gets is body heat. If i take it (them) downstairs to either of my heated rooms,after a few hours the magic kicks in & they sound as good as i'd ever wish them to sound,
Ivan

[Mandolin Mick]

I've been enjoying this thread, as I always enjoy the "opening up" and "playing in" threads.

My favorite comment so far is Jamie's, "Wood doesn't want to be anything." That is true science and a fact! Mandolins are inanimate objects. Of course, I'm a true believer in "opening up", for whatever it's worth.

[nrand]

I am brand new here but I'll jump in. I have seen many such threads in guitar forums, and have not seen any convincing science yet. Most commonly I have seen 'the opening up' spruiked by sellers of secondhand instruments and snake oil, alluding to the magical qualiites obtained by an instrument over time, making them much more desirable than new instruments. My only personal experience has been with a very early Taylor guitar I had from the Lemon Grove factory. Listening to recordings I noticed that the guitar sounded exactly the same after twenty years as when I first bought it. My playing had improved though

[Bertram Henze]

My favorite comment so far is Jamie's, "Wood doesn't want to be anything." That is true science and a fact! Mandolins are inanimate objects.

It does resemble typical physics-speke, though. We physicists like to say things like "the electron sees an attractive potential" or "the system seeks a status of equilibrium". Not assuming humanoid emotions, of course, but hinting at the self-organising character of nature.
What we physicists can not stand, OTOH, is esoterics misunderstanding our way of words and harnessing it for their own fantasies.

[Stephen Perry]

In my obscure area of the violin world, the rapid breaking in and long-term opening up of instruments is completely and totally accepted, just as the need to assess post and setup in a few months and then perhaps annually thereafter. Accepted by people with much more educated ears. People who would prefer that the things exhibit full potential right off the bat, so they'd be a little easier to sell. No science required.

[ralph johansson]

I am brand new here but I'll jump in. I have seen many such threads in guitar forums, and have not seen any convincing science yet. Most commonly I have seen 'the opening up' spruiked by sellers of secondhand instruments and snake oil, alluding to the magical qualiites obtained by an instrument over time, making them much more desirable than new instruments. My only personal experience has been with a very early Taylor guitar I had from the Lemon Grove factory. Listening to recordings I noticed that the guitar sounded exactly the same after twenty years as when I first bought it. My playing had improved though

I find Alan Carruth's account of his measurements very convincing. Taller and broader peaks, lowered top resonance frequency. At least they show the existence of the phenomenon and explain its nature. Taller and broader peaks in the frequence response pattern. And these are the things the musicians note, too, because they are aware of these things - they do make a difference to their playing. A recording, of course, will reveal nothing in this respect. You can't record the feel of an instrument, but it can be explained what's involved in terms of measurable entities.

[ralph johansson]

Well Ralph, if you don't accept the fact that they go back to sleep then how do you expect someone to accept the fact that they wake up? That's the issue here. What you believe to be happening and what other people believe to be happening is just that. What you and others believe to be happening. With no real way of testing it this stays as it always has been, an opinion, yours and the opinion of someone else. Again, I'm not saying something doesn't happen either way, I'm saying there's no scientific proof, simply what people believe is happening.

I'm not talking about "waking up" but opening up, maturing, a long-term process. In my experience it reveals itself after a year or so. Seems people are referring to "waking up" and "going to sleep" as some kind of short-term change; not sure what they mean though. Closeting a guitar for some time certainly will not make it lose the responsivity it has gained over the years. What happens when I've been away from my instruments for some time is they sound deeper and more complex; I simply hear them with a fresh ear. This effect wears off within an hour or so, of course.

And I'm not talking about beliefs, but observations. Increased sustain around anti-resonant spots is something you observe; the same goes for increased response up the neck and in the high treble. It's there, you can feel it (at least musicians can), and for those who don't there are simple tests such as double stop glisses on the top strings.

[MikeEdgerton]

...And I'm not talking about beliefs, but observations.

And again, that is where the problem rears its head. What has been observed cannot be quantified by any sort of measurement and that is what the original question was. There isn't any science behind the phenomena only what people have observed and that isn't consistent. What you believe you hear might not be apparent to others.

[MikeEdgerton]

If we look at wood and what it is, a natural product then one has to assume (there's that word) that many factors can affect it. Holding a piece of paper over a pot of steaming water will show you very quickly that paper will absorb water very fast. If you hold a nice piece of wood over the same pot it will, depending on the species absorb water as well. That can be measured. Taking that into account you can assume again that wood absorbs water unless it has been waterproofed in some way. As few if any builders finish the inside of instruments we can again assume that humidity will change the wood as the wood absorbs water. Conversely water can evaporate from the wood as well. This can be easily observed in real instruments. Many times many of us have closed up and instrument with a source of moisture to rehydrate them and resolve issues associated with lack of moisture. This can easily be measured.

If we assume and again, that is an assumption that vibration and flexing a piece of wood changes it then we could also assume that the vibration from playing an instrument could change it. The question is, can you measure that change? That's beyond my own personal knowledge but I'm sure there are people here that can answer that.

Finally, we know that different materials shrink and expand from cold and heat (and I would guess from humidity, lack and excess). The woods used on many instruments will vary from the tops, backs and sides to the braces and necks. If that can explain part of what is happening then one would need to develop some way of measuring that in all components.

I don't doubt that some instruments change with age, if they are played or not played, I just know there are more forces at work than simply vibrating the instrument. It is pretty apparent that we are never going to see any sort of measurement of the sound the instrument makes, perhaps we should be looking elsewhere.

[Fretbear]

On BBC's "Wonders of the Universe" Dr. Brian Cox explained "the arrow of time" by employing the process of entropy (the second law of thermodynamics.) He molded a sandcastle and then showed it beginning to be eroded by the wind. He said that there is no law in science that necessarily forbids the possibility of that same sandcastle spontaneously becoming exactly formed by that same wind, (or a mandolin resulting from a cyclone hitting a forest) but that the law of entropy states it is "overwhelmingly more likely" for the sandcastle (or mandolin) to progress from a more ordered state to a less ordered state, left to it's own devices. It is understood that nothing in the universe (or the universe itself) is impervious to change over time; every instrument will one day be dust as someone noted. Whether you believe that they mellow or improve is one thing (I do). That they are continuously (and unmeasurably) changing is science.

[Ivan Kelsall]

As Mike Edgerton implies,it's possible that under strictly controlled conditions,the physical stae of an instrument 'could' be measured ie.for moisture content of the wood/it's temperature etc.,but in reality,we simply have to accept any change that's going on,whether we can measure it or not. We may like or dislike the result of any change,but we're stuck with it,& all we can do is to try to rectify the change(s) using the methods that we currently know. For me it's bit like the medieval philosophers debating 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ?'. You can discuss the subject ad infinitum & come no nearer to a full understanding of it,which ( in our case), with different instruments with so many variables,would yield different results - every time,
Ivan

[Josh Kaplan]

People don't have any trouble believing that strings change over time.

-Josh

[Jim]

Wood framed houses don't open up do they? On furniture, only drawers and doors open up.

I have a late 30s Regal canted top that seems to "open up" more every time I play it. After it opens up a couple inches or so I relieve the string tension, glue it and clamp it together overnight and we start over again

[JEStanek]

People don't have any trouble believing that strings change over time.

That's a logical fallacy of if A occurs then B occurs. String dynamics are much easier to measure and evaluate. Corrosion from skin acidity can be measured and the effects can be quantitated and observed. It is a much simpler system to evaluate than the multiple components and materials in a finished mandolin.

Your ears must always be the judge and you must make a personal decision on purchasing an instrument if you want it or not. If you buy it in the hopes that it will open up, maybe you will always enjoy the tone, maybe you won't. That's one of the reasons why we have so many different instruments on the classifieds. Our preferences change over time or we want variety.

Jamie

[Austin Bob]

We've all noticed a change in our instruments as the weather changes. Humidity does affect them. And as I mentioned earlier, all wood products will eventually turn to dust. So logic says that the acoustical properties of a mandolin would peak somewhere between the extremes of it being a green board and just before it turns to dust.

But the question is about science, not my opinion. So... how do you measure that? First you would have to define what you're trying to measure. What does "opening up" mean? Can you plot the sound properties of a closed instrument, and one that has opened up?

Once you have the terms identified and know how to measure, then you have to determine what affects the instrument the most? Is it time - do most instruments sound better simply through aging? Is it being played by a human, or will simple vibration suffice.

Then you'd have to set up a very controlled experiment with lots of new instruments fresh out of the factory. Measure the acoustical properties of each, then play some, vibrate some, and let others sit. Repeat the measurements every year or so, then plot them out over time.

After 50 years or so, you'd have some interesting data, as well as some sore fingers.

[Bernie Daniel]

...For me it's bit like the medieval philosophers debating 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ?'. You can discuss the subject ad infinitum & come no nearer to a full understanding of it,which ( in our case), with different instruments with so many variables,would yield different results - every time,.... Ivan

I agree!

People don't have any trouble believing that strings change over time. -Josh

True, but metal fatigue is a known and scientifically proven phenomenum.

[Justus True Waldron]

It is pretty apparent that we are never going to see any sort of measurement of the sound the instrument makes, perhaps we should be looking elsewhere.

Unless I am misunderstanding your statement, why not?

Forget what physically is going on in the instrument (I mean that's interesting, but as everyone points out, pretty impossible to measure). What I would be more interested in seeing is a change in the sound of the instrument, and that should indeed be measurable. I think it would be neat to take a high end acoustic instrument fresh from the shop that's destined to end up in the hands of a working pro (that shouldn't be that hard to do, lots of instruments get given away to sponsored musicians). Then set it up to certain specifications and with a chosen set of strings and pic, and in an anechoic chamber run a spectrum analyzer on it. That will give you the overall timbre of the instrument, as well as the amplitude of each frequency. Then give it to the pro to play the snot out of... every year take it back and run the same test with the same controls. If you really want to be precise you could even leave it in a humility and temperature controlled room for several days before the test to acclimate it, and build some sort of machine to strum it with the same exact force each time. Play open strings, barred on a couple frets, and some common chords. For an even greater sample you could do this for a whole batch of instruments. I'm pretty sure such a test would eliminate nearly all the variables except for time, leaving one to have a reasonable and measurable look at the sound/time phenomenon. I went to school at RPI (for computer science, not acoustics) but such equipment and controlled tests like this were everywhere. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why it's unreasonable to think that we could ever see some "sort of measurement of the sound an instrument makes."

[KanMando]

My apologies if this process has already been cited, but Yamaha believes there is some science to explain the "opening up" process.

http://www.yamaha.com/about_yamaha/research/are/

[Pete Summers]

These threads come and go on the forums all the time, and naturally, they never result in a definitive answer.

I have another question: why does it matter? As even the believers have pointed out, only the foolish would buy a mandolin or fiddle that sounds crappy, hoping it will get better with time. But beyond that, why does this issue provoke such interest and opinions? How would a definitive answer change anything anyway?

I think most folks would concede that a brand new, lacquer smelling specimen of wooden instrument just off the bench will likely sound better as the wood cures and somebody learns to play it, etc., etc. Up to a point, anyway.

The long term answer IS definitive, however. Nothing material gets better over the long haul. Good wines may get better as they age, but eventually they all turn to vinegar, then dust. The trick is to drink them in their prime, after they've matured, but not yet feeling the inevitable effects of entropy and decay.

Which is an important point mainly if you're about to invest a million bucks in a 300 year old Stradivari violin because you think it will sound better now than it did when played by it's original owner.

[MikeEdgerton]

Unless I am misunderstanding your statement, why not?

I'm a little over 60 years old. I've been playing more than 45 years. I've been hearing this discussed one way or the other for most of that time. I'll assume it was being discussed well before I was born. Nobody as far as I know has managed to do it yet, so I figure that we may be going at this wrong trying to identify what is happening with sound. Iif we can't identify what has been happening with all of the marvelous equipment we have at our disposal, why not look elsewhere to define what is happening?

What you are proposing has been proposed dozens of times before. Why hasn't someone identified what is changing? Either it can't be actually measured or we are going at it wrong or heaven forbid nothing is happening and all of us are wrong.

[MikeEdgerton]

My apologies if this process has already been cited, but Yamaha believes there is some science to explain the "opening up" process.

http://www.yamaha.com/about_yamaha/research/are/

Actually I don't think it has been cited but in a quick scan of the article it has the unfortunate apsect of being enveloped in a marketing message. There is probably information available there that could be used by someone going forward.

[Nevin Fahs]

I've only heard this theory, unfortunately, from people who couldn't afford the instrument they wanted, and settled for something inferior. I agree that any 'opening up" in the course of a session is just a function of your ear adjusting to the instrument, rather than the other way around.
I also agree that the resonant properties of the wood are not going to be altered by vibration or by moderate environmental changes. That's ridiculous. I have a 1941 L-00 that has a hairline split in the soundboard. It opens up in the dry winter and closes up in the humid summer. That it moves or swells can't be disputed, but the sound never changes because the resonance of the wood and the acoustic properties of the box don't change.
If there were anything real going on here with these cheaper instruments, I'd suspect it was the plastic finish, but it's hard to believe that its physical properties could be altered by vibration. I do know for sure that a new instrument with a lacquer finish will improve for the first month or two as it reaches full hardness. It's not going to change much after that, assuming the wood was fairly dry to begin with
I think the builders who subject their instruments to intense "sound therapy" do it as soon as the instrument is finished to relieve unwanted tensions the glued braces and the soundboard. But then it's done, because once that glue has matured, it's not going anywhere.
But poly and certain production lacquers remains somewhat elastic forever. Who knows what effects vibration has on it, but who cares. It's still unsuitable because it dampens the resonance of the wood.
Whether there is science behind it or not (and I agree that there's not) If you have to "open up" your instrument before it starts to sound good, you should probably save up for a better one.

[Stephen Perry]

"I've only heard this theory, unfortunately, from people who couldn't afford the instrument they wanted, and settled for something inferior."

Works on my violins, which tend to be exactly what I want and make. Some I've lent out for a year, just to get a bit of break in done.

"I agree that any 'opening up" in the course of a session is just a function of your ear adjusting to the instrument, rather than the other way around. "

Then other people get used to them suddenly, too. I've had a number of instruments that would suddenly jump to a different arousal state in the course of playing. Non-trivial effect. Good instruments, too.

"I also agree that the resonant properties of the wood are not going to be altered by vibration or by moderate environmental changes. That's ridiculous."

Sound be easy to test. Very small changes can be heard, so I can't refute this so easily.

"I have a 1941 L-00 that has a hairline split in the soundboard. It opens up in the dry winter and closes up in the humid summer. That it moves or swells can't be disputed, but the sound never changes because the resonance of the wood and the acoustic properties of the box don't change."

A. Does the sound never change? Would be very interesting to see spectrograms.
B. I wouldn't necessarily lump not hearing a change to a lack of resonance change.

"If there were anything real going on here with these cheaper instruments, I'd suspect it was the plastic finish, but it's hard to believe that its physical properties could be altered by vibration."

The cheaper instruments have seemed to me to be the ones that are most resistant to change, in my experience.

"I do know for sure that a new instrument with a lacquer finish will improve for the first month or two as it reaches full hardness. It's not going to change much after that, assuming the wood was fairly dry to begin with"

So there you have two effects that lead to opening up, two big obvious ones. Aren't there likely to be continuing effects, and numerous other minor effects that could or do add up?

"I think the builders who subject their instruments to intense "sound therapy" do it as soon as the instrument is finished to relieve unwanted tensions the glued braces and the soundboard. But then it's done, because once that glue has matured, it's not going anywhere."

I don't know about this stuff. I don't do sound therapy as a routine thing, but I'd like to! Then do the final adjustment. Curing of the wood and glue and finish may take a very very long time.

[MikeEdgerton]

...If you have to "open up" your instrument before it starts to sound good, you should probably save up for a better one.

I totally agree with that. If what you start out with isn't what you're looking for you probably aren't ever going to get there no matter what you do to the instrument.