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Thread: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

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    Default Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    Recently I played a friend's early 90s Gilchrist. Last month I tried an early 80s Nugget. Both mandos had very high bridges -- about 1 cm (> 1/4") of the adjusting screw threads was visible. The action was a little high but playability was still quite good.

    Both of these mandolins were LOUD and very pleasing in Tone.

    The action on my both my Heidens is very low -- basically, bridge is fully down -- no screw thread showing. I'm very pleased with the Volume and Tone of my instruments . . . but I am curious -- would raising the action improve Volume and Tone?

    Also: The bridge height on both the Gilchrist and Nugget was UnotU even/uniform. The bridge was adjusted to much higher on the bass side -- does that mean the neck has "twisted"? Is this common?

    Thanks for any feedback.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    The height the bridge does not necessarily reflect the height of the action. On my MK the bridge is almost all the way out but the string height is pretty low. My The Loar bridge is almost all the way down. Both have the same string height. Action height is usually measured by fretting a string at the 1st and 15th fret and measuring the string to the fret at 9th (?) fret.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    You can't judge the effective height of the bridge by looking at the amount of post that's showing. There are a lot of variables in there. The depth of the neck set, the angle of the neck, and the fullness of the bridge base all have to be factored.

    You really have to measure the breakover angle of the strings from the tailpiece to the bridge to get the true idea of the tension. If you are just trying to compare bridge height, you need to measure how far the strings are from the face of the instrument.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    Quote Originally Posted by barry View Post
    You can't judge the effective height of the bridge by looking at the amount of post that's showing. There are a lot of variables in there. The depth of the neck set, the angle of the neck, and the fullness of the bridge base all have to be factored.

    You really have to measure the breakover angle of the strings from the tailpiece to the bridge to get the true idea of the tension. If you are just trying to compare bridge height, you need to measure how far the strings are from the face of the instrument.
    So you're saying higher tension equals louder volume not string/bridge height?
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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    So you're saying higher tension equals louder volume not string/bridge height?
    I hope no one is saying either is such an indicator, because it isn't so. String tension, per se, has nothing to do with how high the bridge is off the top of the instrument. How high the action is off the fingerboard will definitely be reflected in how much pressure it takes to finger the strings and will be felt as higher tension when it isn't. It's just higher action. How high the saddle is off the top of the instrument will indicate higher downward pressure on the top, depending on the break angle, but that's only for that particular instrument. More downward pressure on the bridge/top does not necessarily equal higher volume, more tone, etc. In fact, it can have a negative effect, depending on the instrument.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    Quote Originally Posted by greg_tsam View Post
    So you're saying higher tension equals louder volume not string/bridge height?
    Nope. Sorry. My answer was not very clear in hindsight. Every instrument has an optimal geometry. I was just listing the variables as I understand them. More downward force does not necessarily equal more volume.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    also, it's pretty common for the bass end to be higher than the treble end of the bridge to get setup right, and it has to with differences between the strings, not because the neck is twisted.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    Just differences in building philosophy. I have examples of each and they're both fine instruments.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    first: Turnip above I believe is commenting on "neck relief" not "action" or height of the bridge.

    second: The original question ask about a direct improvement in tone, and then volume. I believe there is a scan of the original Gibson Lloyd Loar owners manual that speaks to this somewhere on the board. My opinion is that raising the bridge many times does help the volume of a mandolin. But in raising the bridge the mandolin may become increasingly harsh in tone and/or lose sustain.

    You have a VERY fine mandolin. I see no harm in raising the action to see what it does for you. However, if it pleases you as it is then why mess with it. I don't think someone can tell you exactly what it will sound like though. Instruments vary greatly in response. But if I owned it I would be curious enough to try it.

    Personally, I cannot play a mandolin with low action. It is the way I play and right now I don't see trying to learn to play that way. I know many people who prefer it though. If you do it measure the height and report what you think the tone and volume do. It would be interesting.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    A good mandolin, properly setup, does not have to have high action or bridge for full volume or tone. There are numerous issues related to volume and tone, but bridge height is not among the most important.
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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    A lot of variables like others have said, that make the bridge different heights, one being neck angle. Try raising the saddle a quarter or half turn, retune & see if you notice a difference........if you do notioce a difference & like it, maybe try another adjustment & retune. You'll find a height that works best for you & your Heiden. I think some mandos start to sound tight or shrill when they are raised above a certain point. Some BGers like it high...........other want it as low as possible without buzzing for ease in playing difficult passages or chords, it is a personal preference.......but each mando might have an optimum point for both tone & playability.......then it gets to be a tradeoff.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    The other way to try it,is to lower the bridge as low as you can get it without having any buzzing on the frets. If you feel that the volume has lessened,then take the bridge back up in small increments until you feel that the mandolin seems as loud as it did before.
    Then,take it up a fraction more to see if the volume really does increase at all. If it doesn't, lower the bridge back down. You might find that you achieve the optimum volume for a lower bridge height. As has been said above,there are many variables.It's finding the optimum setting for your instrument that's important,
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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    While we are on this subject, does using a heavier gauge string cause more downward tension on the bridge? If so, does that increase the loudness?

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    While we are on this subject, does using a heavier gauge string cause more downward tension on the bridge? If so, does that increase the loudness?
    It's my understanding that string tension is proportional to the mass of the string (for a given frequency and length of string), so a heavier gauge string will increase tension. Based on the previous answers this doesn't necessarily mean more volume though - I suspect that for each mandolin there will be an optimum gauge of string for maximum volume.

    I have two guitars and use 12's on one and 13's on the other, the 12's were recommended by the luthier for optimum results but 13's work best on the other, presume the same applies to mandolins?

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    In the Grisman/Thile video currently under discussion, David talks specifically about getting more volume with higher action (back in the day), so I guess his answer to the volume part of your question is yes. As for tone, I'm not so sure.

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    Quote Originally Posted by Laird View Post
    In the Grisman/Thile video currently under discussion, David talks specifically about getting more volume with higher action (back in the day), so I guess his answer to the volume part of your question is yes. As for tone, I'm not so sure.
    I caught that too. I think it was around the 12 minute mark.
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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    String pressure/bridge height - volume/tone - mmmmm !. Over the years it's been my understanding that a higher bridge increases volume. My own thoughts are that it's true - up to a point. As with all things,there is usually a point,which, if you go beyond it,there's no further benefit. In fact if you imagine a mandolin or guitar top under so much pressure (theoretically),that it can hardly vibrate due to the stress,then i'd imagine that the tone would be affected considerably.The top needs to be free to resonate,& anything, including string pressure from an overly high bridge, will reduce it's ability to resonate,thus affecting the tone adversely & maybe the volume also. No doubt the luthiers on here will be able to add far more to the discussion,
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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    Higher bridge with higher action combines to allow the player to pick harder
    without the greater amplitude of the wider string vibration motion hitting the frets and buzzing,
    But then left hand has to work harder pressing the strings down.
    the whacking the strings harder moves the top more, so there may be more loudness ..

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    Default Re: Height of BRIDGE: Higher = Louder/more Tone??

    When John Duffey built the first "Duck" mandolin he added, I believe, a 4 degree pitch to the neck and said it would allow the bridge to be higher but not have the strings higher off of the frets, his theory was that it made the mandolin louder...He didn`t have anything to compare it to since it was the first one built so I don`t know if it was or not...

    I think with the strings still low on the frets a picker would not have to strike them any harder so I don`t think that would have made any difference on the "Duck"...It seemed to have plenty of loudness and I know John had his strings set pretty high on his F-12...I suppose this is all subjective and will never have a staright answer....

    Willie

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