Is red spruce the best wood for the top?

[Pete Jenner]

" ...bonking on a piece of wood..."

Ah that takes me back to my early married days when we were saving up for the bed.

[peter.coombe]

Ah that takes me back to my early married days...

Careful or this thread will get shut down.

& the variable .. Who is doing the work?

Yes, and the player.

The best wood for a top is the kind that your builder is most comfortable with. I've played excellent examples of each that I'd be proud to own.

+1

[Pete Jenner]

Careful or this thread will get shut down.

ok

[dcoventry]

Ah that takes me back to my early married days when we were saving up for the bed.

I am fully in support of a great turn of phrase. It's witty, not vulgar.

Keep on with your bad self, BH.

[Spruce]

There is no simple answer.

[George R. Lane]

If it were the best choice then no others would be used.

[mandogoshen]

No. You should use Western Redcedar, which, to my ears, is the finest sounding tonewood. Of course it sure helps if your builder also has a reputation for awesome sounding instruments.

A few years ago I had an opportunity to hear a Parsons F-5 built w/a red cedar top and walnut sides and back. From evey angle, including playing it I'd be hard pressed to recall ever having heard a 'sweeter' sounding mandolin. It was loud enough and had very understated trim and a sweet, clear tone. Every note was like a caress to the ears. Chords rang out in a shimmer. Like a female who studied ballet as a child/youth. It's impossible for them to not move gracefully. This mandolin had the sound equivilent. Punch, clarity and grace.

I've heard and owned some high quality guitars and mandos over the years, but never heard anything that took my breath like the Parsons.

[OldGus]

I would like to see a more variation in the back/sides/neck wood being used. Most builders offer various top woods but how about the backs? A good example of Walnut is just as good if not better than Maple IMO. It's also pretty common... My favorite combination so far that I've tried was Walnut/Sitka. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQMs8...4&feature=plcp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTB8ponXZcI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5zW8gIS8KE. Here we have a Kimble with Red, then Sitka. A Griffin with Sitka/Walnut and a Parsons with Spruce/ Walnut.

[peter.coombe]

I would like to see a more variation in the back/sides/neck wood being used.

Just take a look at my web site.

[OldGus]

You are a diamond in the rough, Peter, and I really like the sound you get from them. I really like that Tasmanian Blackwood and Grevelia Robusta as well. I played a Larrivee D03 with the latter. It sounded and responded a lot like maple with a lot of edge and power but less brightness.

[peter.coombe]

Unfortunately I am allergic to Grevelia robusta dust (otherwise known as silky oak) so have never used it in a mandolin. Beautiful wood, and I did buy some with the intention of using it on a mandolin, but nearly choked when I started to cut it, so stopped and eventually sold it. My current favourite back and side wood is Eucalyptus regnens. Most people associate Eucalyptus with weedy firewood species, not musical instruments, but every single mandolin I have made with this stuff sounds amazing. Beats the best Maple IMHO. It is more difficult to work with, has large pores, and tends to split more easily than Maple, but the sound is something else. Another good one is Tasmanian Myrtle, and that has quite a good following amongst some of the guitar builders. Blackwood is very similar to Koa, and that is a well respected tonewood.

[Spruce]

Whoops, just realized that I forgot to post the answers to the tap-tone "test".....
They are all Engelmann cut from the same tree, with the exception of (obviously) #5, which is nicely resonant chunk of red cedar....

What I do not understand is why you object to a short concise tutorial on top wood by John in which none of the tops are declared better than any other?

See above....

[Max Girouard]

Whoops, just realized that I forgot to post the answers to the tap-tone "test".....
They are all Engelmann cut from the same tree, with the exception of (obviously) #5, which is nicely resonant chunk of red cedar....



See above....

Ha ha, that is pretty funny! I had a feeling that was what you were going to do, either that or tap the same piece of wood after planning pieces off to change the "tap" tone. Good one!

[Eddie Sheehy]

Yes, but did you use the same hammer?

[Astro]

Whoops, just realized that I forgot to post the answers to the tap-tone "test".....
They are all Engelmann cut from the same tree, with the exception of (obviously) #5, which is nicely resonant chunk of red cedar....



See above....

HA ! Brilliant !

[mandroid]

4. Red Spruce (Picea rubens)

so the term Rubinesque , applies to tone-wood, as well as body shape in Women?

[jimmy powells]

Last time I was in contact with Steve Gilchrist (The man) he said he was using red spruce for his tops so having him use it does say quite a lot. Don't need to say much more.

Jimmy
UK

[sunburst]

Last time I was in contact with Steve Gilchrist (The man) he said he was using red spruce for his tops so having him use it does say quite a lot. Don't need to say much more.

Why would the opinion of someone who gets lots of money for his/her instruments have any more value than the opinions of builders who's prices are more moderate?
I'm actually not asking you that question personally, Jimmy, it's just something I've thought of more than once, especially when wood vendors on the phone try to sell me the wood they have rather than the wood I want, saying something like "Steve Gilchrist loves this stuff! He bought all I had last time..."
My brain automatically says; "So? Steve Gilchrist can use what he wants, do you have what I want?" but of coarse I'm more polite than that when I continue to ask if they have the wood I'm in search of.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

[QUOTE=jimmy powells;1095463]Last time I was in contact with Steve Gilchrist (The man) he said he was using red spruce for his tops so having him use it does say quite a lot. Don't need to say much more

Thanks for the comment, Jimmy. But lets face it, Gilchrist mandolins sound so much different from the Gibson Master Models Loar and recent), that the choice of wood should mean next to nothing. (Just like the catch phrase "hand made"; oh man, you can really screw up with hands.)
I try to find out, who makes the mandolin I want to hear and play, and then I decide what to buy. Another thought, whenever builders copy a detail of a much praised instrument, they can't be sure, whether they captured the idea behind it. I'm sure Martin started using Sitka mostly because it was available in high quantities, and maybe because it was cheap. But then again, to my taste, the best mandolins I ever played had Red Spruce tops - except maybe for Darryl Wolfe's Loar. Best thing is a builder with lots of experience on one species, or moreover, one tree. However, the most talented and experienced builders could even work with most any spruce.

Regards,
Henry

[DerTiefster]

If I try to analyze the statement regarding who uses what and how much he gets for the result, I come up with this:

1) many customers with much money (and therefore presumably able to gather dollars together, and therefore presumably intelligent and discerning, not to mention beautiful or married to the beautiful) buy this maker's wares

2) the materials must then not be intrinsically flawed, and are probably beautiful, as well

3) if you buy them, then your spouse will also
... a) be beautiful, or
... b) will hook up with someone who -is- beautiful, for a change, and abandon you as you deserve for even thinking along these lines.

Of course, not every one gets beyond 3a before shelling out his hard-earned cash. That's the power of modern marketing.

[dcoventry]

[QUOTE=Henry Eagle;1095561]

But then again, to my taste, the best mandolins I ever played had Red Spruce tops - except maybe for Darryl Wolfe's Loar. Best thing is a builder with lots of experience on one species, or moreover, one tree. However, the most talented and experienced builders could even work with most any spruce.

Regards,
Henry

What kind of top does Darryl's have?!?

[peter.coombe]

Last time I was in contact with Steve Gilchrist (The man) he said he was using red spruce for his tops so having him use it does say quite a lot. Don't need to say much more.

No you don't need to say anything more because it doesn't mean anything. All it means is that Steve gets the sound he wants from red spruce using the techniques he uses. Lots of people like the sound he gets and are willing to pay lots of money for that sound and the Gilchrist logo on the headstock (including me in 2000, but mine has an Engelmann top!). If you or I use exactly the same woods Steve uses, we won't get the same sound! I would put just as much weight on the fact that Lawrence Smart mostly uses Engelmann, and there are plenty of other examples. I like the sounds that both Steve and Lawrence get from their instruments. Personally I prefer to use Red, European or Engelmann Spruce, or King Billy Pine, depending on what I am trying to achieve or what the customer desires. For example, for someone who has a very light touch and wants a delicate sweet sound for playing at home, I would probably not use Red Spruce. I have plenty of these sorts of customers, not everyone plays bluegrass with guitars fiddles and banjos. I play one of my red spruce mandolins in the band I play in, but it seldom gets played at home. I always tend to pick up something else that does not cut it in very noisy environments. There is no "best" species of wood, any more than there is any one "best" maker for everyone.

[almeriastrings]

There is no "best" species of wood, any more than there is any one "best" maker for everyone.

And there you have... a perfect summary of the situation in one sentence.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

[QUOTE=dcoventry;1095592]

What kind of top does Darryl's have?!?

I'm not quite sure. But at some point in this forum (guess it was in the Loar picture of the day thread), if I'm not mistaken, he mentioned that the top wood of his July 9th '23 Loar had ultra-narrow grain, which doesn't look like Red Spruce. And I also remembered that (in '92) I Liked the sound a lot.
Henry

[peter.coombe]

Ultra narrow grain doesn't mean a thing. Just take a look at my wood pile and I can show you some red spruce mando tops with grain so fine you can barely see the grain lines. So ultra fine grain in red spruce is not all that uncommon.