How hard is it to do setup?

[Tom Haywood]

The most important thing I've learned from violin setups is how much more important the subjective measurement is. This came from my first two violin setups involving replacing broken bridges. Both were done for experienced classical violinists. I discovered that there is a "standard" bridge shape and resulting string height, etc. for classical violin, and a somewhat different "standard" shape for bluegrass fiddle, all based on general preferences regarding playing style and tone. One player had several violins, including one with the "bluegrass" shaped bridge which she liked a little better in some ways. After discussing it, I shaped a bridge that was between the two standards. Several years later she still says it's the best setup she's ever had and her violin sounds much better than it did originally. I did something similar for the second player, making some different adjustments based on our discussions. He brags about the improved playability and sound to this day. Both of these folks were happy and very accomplished players with "standard" measurements, but are happier with something tailored to their individual needs.

[belbein]

Thanks, Stephen. You've just convinced me that I can scratch "Learn violin set up" off my list of things to try.

[Stephen Perry]

Having someone specific to set something up for is really enjoyable. I've done some highly custom setups. For the curious, http://www.darntonviolins.com/violin...book/setup.pdf. I finish up with some acoustically oriented work that allows me to improve tone, reduce noise, control bass/treble balance a bit, and generate a nice open feel.

[Pete Summers]

Every single time I've read this kind of debate--whether about set up, removing a neck, fixing the smallest thing or the biggest--there are always two points of view. POV 1: Aw, hell, give it a try and you'll learn something. POV 2: Don't do it, let the luthiers do it.

What I don't get is: this is a builders and repair forum. Other than the warning that "you shouldn't try it on a priceless instrument"--a legitimate caution--for the life of me I can't understand ever telling someone not to learn to do this.

You all know by now I can't resist a story. I was on a similar forum for guitar builders, which is (like this site) populated by luthiers. I asked about removing the neck of a particular cheap guitar that had ended up in my hands. Of course I got the avalanche of warnings and injunctions to GET THEE TO A LUTHIER. Then someone warned me (imagine wagging finger), "This is not the place to start in learning to repair a guitar." So I asked: "What IS the proper place to start?" The answer was kind of a stunned silence. Because the truth is, to learn, you start anywhere, with whatever is on your bench and whatever kakamamie theory you have about how to proceed, and go from there.

There's only one way to learn craftsmanship: making and fixing our mistakes. So I say to the Original Questioner: GO FOR IT!!! (but maybe not with an original Loar).

+1 on this. Even the best craftsmen had to start somewhere. And the truth is, IMO, instrument set-up ain't brain surgery. It's a manual skill like any other and can be learned by most reasonably astute pupils willing to put in the time.

Nobody is saying you should jump into complex repairs on a $100,000 Loar, but the average amateur with a desire to learn can acquire the tools and skill needed to lower a bridge, file a nut, level frets and fit/position a bridge. It is not a state secret how to do this stuff -- there's plenty of info on the Internet and if you have the patience and desire to learn, you can. Your first run through may be a bit rough, but practice brings improvement, as in anything else.

You don't have to aspire to professional status, you only need to enjoy the detailed work and satisfy one customer - yourself.

Naturally, some mandolin owners don't have the time or interest to set-up their own instruments and quite logically they will take it to a luthier and pay to have it done, as they should. Others of us enjoy such things, don't require the perfection that a concert artist might, and want to save money for other pursuits.

To each his own. I say, if you want to try it, do it. If not, don't.

[Patrick Sylvest]

A good set up makes all the difference. If a reputable luthier or setup technician is touted, it may make a considerable difference.

I have a Dobro that was a wreck that I watched Tim Scheerhorn basically rebuild and reengineer before my eyes. Now I have an amazing workhorse instrument that I'll never sell.

I tweak instruments myself, shaving saddles and filing nuts and such. I can do the small stuff many instruments need.

The value of a good setup can't be underestimated.

[bmac]

Most mandolins purchased mail order have not been set up at all, unless they come from a reputable dealer.
Figure andother $60 - $100 for set up after purchase. Or learn to do it yourself...

Then when you are invited to play solo at Carnegie Hall you might want to have a professional in-depth set up, or by that time you may have enough experience to do it yourself.

[Stephen Perry]

I sell "mail order" as does Robert, The Mandolin Store, etc. and I and those I mention set things up quite nicely. I wouldn't lump all "mail order" dealers into a single "hates their customers" category!!! Many people simply do not live near a store with good stop or a good luthier. I suspect those of us who routinely ship serve that market.

[Shelagh Moore]

What strikes me when I read discussions on whether mandolin set-up is an area that requires specialist experience and knowledge is that if such is the case, where do you find these people locally? For instance for those of you that live in Central Scotland, who are they and where are they located? Who have you used and would definitely recommend? I certainly don't know. For this reason, I just do the basics, the best I can.

Whenever I have asked this in the past I am usually pointed to some of few Scottish luthiers, none of who are interested in such work, e.g. Mike Vanden.

Yes, exactly. Good, mandolin-experienced people can be thin on the ground in some places. I know of no full-time luthier or repairman in Central Scotland specialised enough for good mandolin setup so I do my own work too. I did do guitar repair work many years ago and accumulated some specialist tools and the rest is from decades of playing mandolin, and picking up experience and learning from such resources as I've found.

[bmac]

When I mentioned "mail order" I should have been more careful.... there are many actual dealers whe do set ups and deliver perfectly satisfactory instruments to buyers by mail... In fact most or all legitimate dealers would do that, I suspect.

I was referring to resellers who simply import batches of instruments and re-sell them mail order to unsuspecting individuals expecting an already set up instrument but receiving a barely playable instrument. These resellers wouldn't know how to set them up anyway, and you wouldn't want them to try. But I am concerned about those buyers who think they are getting a ready to go instrument but are getting an almost unplayable instrument. My own experience is a case in point. I purchased a lower end, but decent resonater mandolin mail order, based on price. I phoned the seller and asked if the instrument came set up for play.... He said "Sure it does." But when I received it nut had not been adjusted at all. I did the set up myself and it worked out well, but the buyer with less experience than I would be in real trouble trying to det decent tone or comfort out of the instrument. And it would cost him a considerable sum to get the instrument to actually play decent.

[bmac]

I personally view the repairing, restoring and refurbishing of instruments as part of the creative experience just as much as playing the instrument.... My advantage is that I am retired and can focus on instruments without it interfering with my vocation or marriage. In fact I normally spend maybe three hours playing, and two or three hours restoring/repairing old beat up instruments, as time allows. I don't do it for money but for the satisfaction that long after I am dead an instrument will be experiencing its second life and will hopefully last for another hundred years. That is reward enough. another aquaintance has been doing the same thing for many years for the same reason... With very little financial gain.

[JeffD]

and two or three hours restoring/repairing old beat up instruments, as time allows. I don't do it for money but for the satisfaction that long after I am dead an instrument will be experiencing its second life and will hopefully last for another hundred years..

The satisfaction is in the doing, not in the financial gain, either profit or savings.

I think thats great. I don't have any skills in that direction. Its one continuous frustration for me. Mediocre hand eye coordination, or inadequate spacial imagination, I don't know, probably both.

I get nervous thinking about the work that goes into doing the kerfing, its amazing.


But I can play 'em, and I depend on folks like you and others to make 'em playable.

[almeriastrings]

One thing that has not been mentioned is that it can depend quite a lot on the quality of the instrument itself as to how "hard" it is. If you have a really fine, well made instrument, with quality components and precision assembly it can end up taking a lot less time (and hassle) than on something that comes in with a poor grade bridge, rough, poorly made nut, badly fitted, soft frets, possibly even major problems such as wrong neck set or improperly installed truss rod..... I have often spent twice as long putting things right on those than getting a really good instrument into optimal condition. Unfortunately, 90% of the instruments that I end up working on are low-end purchases from "box shifter" dealers that arrive with buyers in entirely unplayable states, often with manufacturing defects from the get go. On the rare occasions a Heiden, Brentrup, Gibson or Ellis turns up I breath a sigh of relief, but they are a pleasure to work on by comparison.

[Stephen Perry]

Of the various accomplishments I have in my life the largest is learning how (although I have not actually done all the parts) make everything that goes into a violin except the strings and fine tuners. Including setup at a decent level. I've literally used firewood for neck blocks (silver maple), local timber for top (red spruce) and back (red maple), made fingerboards from billets, etc. I haven't made fittings, but there's no secret there, I'd just need to set up my lathe for pegs and endpins. I've done similar diddly bits for other projects.

I have no idea which part is most demanding, but I certainly wouldn't minimize the skill required for setup. I don't really know how difficult such things are. I come from an artisan working-class background, thoroughly British at that, and have come to realize that the things I saw when a child were some of the last vestiges of 19th and early 20th C handwork. I saw a few working sailing craft, still in use. That's not going to happen today in Britain! Old men with large planes working spars, men running up custom motor parts on metal lathes, milling machines. I have a sign from my great grandfather's joinery shop ready to put up on my shop exterior when it's done. I use tools that he bought in the late 19th C, and every day use the stones he set in their boxes as an apprentice. So the handworking ethic runs deep in my family.

Thus I don't know how hard such things are. I can make a cylinder of wood or metal. I can make a cone. I can make a precision block of wood or metal. All squared up, by hand. A violin neck and scroll are essentially a long conical segment joined to a shorter half cone at the body and faired, and fairing into a box at the other end, the pegbox. It's like drawing cartoons. Block out the shapes, then detail them without losing the underlying form. Bridges and fingerboards require precision geometry and an artistic touch. I presume fretwork does, too. I've gradually become more comfortable with it.

Carving the plates, the planes and scrapers sing, telling me how far to go, to be refined again and again as the box comes together. Bridges talk pretty loudly about what they like.

But mandolins are a different animal. I can't really set the resonances the way I'd like, without the lump of clay Roscoe Morgan liked so much. I can't adjust the neck shape and simply retouch with stain, oil, and a glaze of shellac. Great hulking bridges with metal bits don't behave like the 2.1g of maple supporting violin strings.

Nevertheless, I suspect that a craftman's vision and a player's touch coming together really helps the setup process. Most people aren't trained from a young age in any craft these days. I wasn't, but I watched lots and learned by doing, and have the slice scars to prove it!! Setup is pretty delicate sometimes. I certainly don't think I'd suggest going directly from working a splitting maul to making a violin bridge. I tend to see "setup" as doing whatever is required to make an instrument work, so long as I'm turned lose with that instruction. I'm perfectly willing to make a new saddle for a bridge with different intonation. Or an entire bridge, for that matter. I can pull out and replace frets, if I really want to get the fretboard just right. Problem of course, not all mandolins rate that kind of time, especially instruments being set up on "spec" to a particular price point. Fortunately the careful, patient, and steady can generally do most of what others do in the mechanical setup.

I do have on here somewhere a reasonably full description of the various processes I follow for getting what I think is more tone, presence, and responsiveness out of mandolins. And there are numerous reference threads on here that are excellent.

I just don't know whether typed words can substitute for watching and learning in person. Certainly I've been disappointed by folks wanting to help me. I really can't start out by showing someone how to sharpen a knife, or how to set up a bandsaw! But for basic mandolin setup there aren't too many operations and very few tools are required, so I can't see it being a large undertaking, at least compared to turning firewood into bowed stringed instruments!!!

A last thought, this site offers in old threads, new threads, and personal contacts with the denizens an incredible depth of knowledge. I recommend that anyone attempting to learn this stuff use that deep resource, especially before doing anything permanent but a bit unsettled in the mind. Certainly working on the fundamentals of wood and metal craftsmanship can't hurt at all.

Setup is a process with real heart. Have fun.

[jhsmtupe@gmail.com]

Can I have a copy?.

jhsmJhsmtupe@gmail.com

[Phil Goodson]

1. This thread is almost 7 years old.
2. Not wise to put your email address on the web.
3. Send an email to rob.meldrum@gmail.com and he will send you a free ebook of how to do setups.

[Jim Garber]

1. This thread is almost 7 years old.
2. Not wise to put your email address on the web.
3. Send an email to rob.meldrum@gmail.com and he will send you a free ebook of how to do setups.

That is a little strange. You just told him it wasn't wise to put your email on the Web but you put Rob Meldrum's here. Whoops?

[Jeff Mando]

That is a little strange. You just told him it wasn't wise to put your email on the Web but you put Rob Meldrum's here. Whoops?

Reminds me of when I started playing beer joints years ago. The old band leader said that the first thing to know was never to put your beer on top of your amp....always put it on top of your buddy's amp!

[Cobalt]

To be fair, according to a Google search, that particular email address is already posted about 1000 times on this site. I guess one more doesn't hurt.

[Phil Goodson]

That is a little strange. You just told him it wasn't wise to put your email on the Web but you put Rob Meldrum's here. Whoops?

I knew that would be said. Rob has posted his email here many times and it can be considered public knowledge at this point and requests are encouraged by Rob. I think you know that.
(And I didn't put MY email there, did I?)

[Wrnchbndr]

All instruments are different. Even those instruments flying off of a well organized assembly line using quality materials with the best intentions and properly considered quality controls - each one is unique and each instrument is going to develop its own unique problems over time. A few instruments will survive and need very little service until they are played to death and need new frets while others twist and bend with the seasons and self destruct and this is without any mistakes made by the manufacturer. A setup performed by a typical retail store will clean the instrument, replace the strings in a tidy fashion, adjust the trussrod, the nut slots, the string height, and the intonation. They might then readjust the trussrod and/or the string height to cope with any manufacturing flaws. I can do that in under 20 minutes and I can teach anyone to do that just as well. Most of the time, the result is a functional instrument more or less. My goal as a tech and luthier is to put an instrument into the hands of a musician that will enable them to play the instrument without the instrument being a barrier to their art. Or, to put an instrument into the hands of a student that will not impede their progress and honestly I don't see much of a difference between the two. There is a connection between the player and the instrument - at least I hope there is. Anything I can do to enhance this connection becomes the overall goal of my setups. Its a balancing act to consider all of the issues involved. Its also rare to encounter an instrument that only needs the basic adjustments to yield an instrument that plays at its optimal potential. I need to consider the client's expectations, how much will they value a superior result and the cost of another hour or two on the bench. I need to be on the ball to discover flaws and discrepancies which will prevent a reasonable result before I invest the client's money. I need to know when to tell a client that their instrument is garbage and isn't worth the cost of a set of strings. There are lots of people who fully expect an instrument from Walmart to be suitable for their ten-year-old to learn and progress. These aren't stupid people. They expect any musical instrument to work as well as a new coffee maker. And then it comes to deciding whether or not I want these people to come back as future clients and I generally do. The overwhelming majority of the instruments that cross my bench need quite a lot more than the standard adjustments to get them anywhere near their potential and often this is regardless of their pedigree. All this while at the same time I personally know professional musicians with total disregard for the niceties of what I consider a great instrument. These folks just muscle through a tune playing what I'd consider a medieval torture device and do it with unbelievable grace. I secretly hate them but have to admire their skill and ability. A good setup is simply one that you appreciate. A good tech will be able to explain everything. Its not about adjusting things to a spec. I don't use any measuring devices during a setup. In my view, every instrument has its own optimal adjustment. If you like what your tech is doing then they are doing a good job. If not, try another.

In doing this for over twenty years, I have been pressured time and time again to set a flat rate for setups and it would be unfair to everyone if I did.

[Jim Garber]

I knew that would be said. Rob has posted his email here many times and it can be considered public knowledge at this point and requests are encouraged by Rob. I think you know that.
(And I didn't put MY email there, did I?)

Fair enough. I figured that just the juxtaposition sounded odd.

[Phil Goodson]

All instruments are different. Even those instruments flying off of a well organized assembly line using quality materials with the best intentions and properly considered quality controls - each one is unique and each instrument is going to develop its own unique problems over time. A few instruments will survive and need very little service until they are played to death and need new frets while others twist and bend with the seasons and self destruct and this is without any mistakes made by the manufacturer. A setup performed by a typical retail store will clean the instrument, replace the strings in a tidy fashion, adjust the trussrod, the nut slots, the string height, and the intonation. They might then readjust the trussrod and/or the string height to cope with any manufacturing flaws. I can do that in under 20 minutes and I can teach anyone to do that just as well. Most of the time, the result is a functional instrument more or less. My goal as a tech and luthier is to put an instrument into the hands of a musician that will enable them to play the instrument without the instrument being a barrier to their art. Or, to put an instrument into the hands of a student that will not impede their progress and honestly I don't see much of a difference between the two. There is a connection between the player and the instrument - at least I hope there is. Anything I can do to enhance this connection becomes the overall goal of my setups. Its a balancing act to consider all of the issues involved. Its also rare to encounter an instrument that only needs the basic adjustments to yield an instrument that plays at its optimal potential. I need to consider the client's expectations, how much will they value a superior result and the cost of another hour or two on the bench. I need to be on the ball to discover flaws and discrepancies which will prevent a reasonable result before I invest the client's money. I need to know when to tell a client that their instrument is garbage and isn't worth the cost of a set of strings. There are lots of people who fully expect an instrument from Walmart to be suitable for their ten-year-old to learn and progress. These aren't stupid people. They expect any musical instrument to work as well as a new coffee maker. And then it comes to deciding whether or not I want these people to come back as future clients and I generally do. The overwhelming majority of the instruments that cross my bench need quite a lot more than the standard adjustments to get them anywhere near their potential and often this is regardless of their pedigree. All this while at the same time I personally know professional musicians with total disregard for the niceties of what I consider a great instrument. These folks just muscle through a tune playing what I'd consider a medieval torture device and do it with unbelievable grace. I secretly hate them but have to admire their skill and ability. A good setup is simply one that you appreciate. A good tech will be able to explain everything. Its not about adjusting things to a spec. I don't use any measuring devices during a setup. In my view, every instrument has its own optimal adjustment. If you like what your tech is doing then they are doing a good job. If not, try another.

In doing this for over twenty years, I have been pressured time and time again to set a flat rate for setups and it would be unfair to everyone if I did.

I started to read this, but I couldn't tough it out with no paragraphs.
More than 4 lines without a break have become difficult for me to read, even if it might be interesting.
Hope I didn't miss anything.

[Marty Jacobson]

Setups and finishing are the easiest things to get started with, and the most difficult, maybe impossible, things to master. I do a lot of setups for a lot of people, every one I think of things I could have done better after finishing the job.

[Wrnchbndr]

Phil... Yea I do that. Sorry. Geezerdom. I even forget the original post.

Setups can be easy. It all depends on what's on your bench.