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Thread: The Art of PICKING

  1. #1

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    So, then: on the "Vicarious Violinism" thread, Tartini's The Art of Bowing has been generously linked by Eugene. It is, formally speaking, a theme with 50 variations, exemplifying just about every articulation under the sun.

    This is the beginning of the second week of 2005— 51 weeks to go. Ehm... you follow my sick, sick mind?

    I have printed Sr. Tartini's noble text, and will spend this week studying the theme only; next week, Variation I.

    I would love to have the vicarious participation of other MC-colleagues who in turn may wish to post their own experiences, questions, recommendations, etc. as we go along. This by way of a support group for a seriously demented individual.

    All this so that, by the time we are about to wish each other Happy New Year again, we may have compounded our very own, informal, collective version of "The Art of PICKING", one incorporating all the fruit of our labors, all the helpful suggestions, all the good points made along the way.

    Any takers?
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  2. #2
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Great idea, Victor! Count me in for the weekly report. I hope that i can keep up with you.

    I glanced at it the other day. Looks interesting. There is a midi file that goes with it, tho distasteful to listen to, allows for those of us without superior readign sckills to get the subtle rhythms.

    Jim
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  3. #3

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    Victor, I like the way you think!

    Count me in as well. I love to have this kind of goal -- a kind of syllabus to keep me learning new stuff. The idea of kicking ideas around with this fine group is exciting. I haven't done any serious work with violin music on the mandolin except for the sonatas and partitas.

    I have another goal having to do with learning to play the entire Well-tempered Klavier on the piano. I started a year or so ago. I have 6 preludes and 3 fugues learned. I am shooting for a pace of one a month. Havn't been able to keep that up though -- too much else to do (earning a living, practicing the instruments that I actually perform on...) I am afraid I may not finish until I'm about 112 years old




  4. #4
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    I hope you guys take copious notes and offer them for sale after. I would love to help but one look at it told me it was way over my head. Good luck by next Christmas I may be at a level to understand it. John
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  5. #5

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    Well, John, I'm not so sure about "copious notes for sale"... Obviously, if either James makes a helpful point in the course of this exercise, I will jot it down in pencil on my own copy of the score; perhaps they, in turn, will do the same on their copies, if I am the one to be struck by sudden revelation. In this way, the cumulative benefit will be for all to share— all, including yourself and anyone else who does not openly "sign on".

    Now, where is my pick?
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  6. #6
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    Victor et al.,

    I wish you guys all the best, but I don't think I'll join you on this endeavor. Mainly because I've learned enough about myself that despite my best intentions (and there's a road somewhere paved with them) I'd never stick with it -- too undisciplined, I suppose. Besides, these pieces are hard enough on the violin

    I'll be curious to know how successfully you pick your way through some of the variations, esp. #32, 42 & 49. Please don't tell me it's possible to play these at tempo or I may just hang up my mandos on the wall for all time!

    Seriously, though, it's a grand idea, Victor, and I'll be awaiting everyone's progress reports with bated breath. (When you finish these, I have some Locatelli that could be your challenge for 2006 )
    John Craton
    "Pick your fingers to the bone, then pick with the bone"

  7. #7

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    I correct myself: Eugene linked the Tartini on the "Quarantine this Section" thread, not as I wrote incorrectly earlier on.

    As for tempo, operaguy, well... this is a learning experience, not an effort to bring this work to the stage; in other words, let each player do his/her best in bringing this up to the best, reasonable tempo. I would not let such matters bother me too much at present.

    Also, there will obviously be things that we mandolinists will have to do different than violinists do. For only one of many examples: in the case of trills marked on notes of minuscule duration, I think that plain mordents (or inverted such), "Spanish" trills and the like will do just fine. We don't want our picks to catch on FIRE, do we?
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  8. #8

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    Hmmm...sounds groovy. I won't promise to keep up, but I will try to hack at this on occasion and read the insights and experiences here.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by (jgarber @ Jan. 09 2005, 12:00)
    There is a midi file that goes with it, tho distasteful to listen to, allows for those of us without superior readign sckills to get the subtle rhythms.
    Much more tasteful, although less complete, Andrew Manze recorded the theme and highlights from the variations on his Tartini CD (Manze, A. 1998. Tartini: The Devil's Sonata. Harmonia Mundi, 907213).

  10. #10
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    This seems a worthy, if perhaps optimistic, endeavor. Scrolling thru Tartini is pretty daunting; actually playing it might be more than I can handle, but why not try?

    My problem (as if I could limit it to one problem, rather than one volume) is that my picking has no rigor of application. I suspect that every time I play something, it is picked differently. (Sometimes it seems to be noted differently as well, but that's another story). Still, I suppose a conscious effort to internalise picking patterns, and exploring different rhythms, is bound to have a salutory effect on some level.

    I'll sign on, with more hope than skill, and the prospect of reversing the proportion. (More skill than hope? I dunno, that doesn't sound too optimistic either).

  11. #11
    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    Count me in. I printed off the first page last night and began to work on the theme. I glanced at the first variation and then tried to play part of it, but found all of the ornaments a little tough at first. I can see where this will benefit my playing quite a lot. Great idea Victor.

    -John.
    Ah! must --
    Designer Infinite --
    Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
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  12. #12

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    Re: ornaments: Precisely, John! If you stay with the theme only for this Week #1, you will immediately see the need to practice some trills in isolation, especially the always troublesome ring-finger-to-pinky (or vice versa) trill.

    I will post my observations, questions, etc. on my first "weekly report" as soon as I get some more time to spend on Sr. Tartini's workout.

    My only advice at this point —unqualified as that may be—#would be to NOT move ahead of our self-imposed "schedule". Time is the greatest aid to learning; it is not the sudden gale but the continuous effect of the wind that gives the mountain its shape and contour.
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  13. #13
    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Time is the greatest aid to learning; it is not the sudden gale but the continuous effect of the wind that gives the mountain its shape and contour.
    That's a nice quote. Mind if I use it for my signature, properly attributed of course?

    Great advice, as always. The theme, and the theme only, will occupy my attention this week.

    -John.
    Ah! must --
    Designer Infinite --
    Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
    --Francis Thompson

  14. #14
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Well, I'm looking at the Tartini now. #I think I might manage the theme, but the variations seem to be escalating rapidly. #Still, I can at least contribute my native-German speaker status to the endeavour: I know Victor reads German, but not everybody else may have understood Icking's annotations on page two of the PDF. #The most important annotation is that there is a simplified MIDI version available of the theme and all 50 variations. #It leaves out the trills and the optional decorations and can be found here (the URL has changed from the one printed in the PDF). #Another potentially significant information is that Icking recommends a metronome tempo of 56 for the "finished product" and a tempo of 40 for practising. #He also recommends that all trills should be played top-down.

    Martin

    PS: I should really read the previous posts more carefully in future: I've just seen that Jim had already mentioned the existence of the MIDI file. Apologies for the redundancy.




  15. #15

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    So, then:

    Week #1 (Theme):

    I. Obviously, we mandolinists use downstrokes a great deal more ehm... generously than violinists would have used downBOWS; I hold this truth to be self-evident, and applicable to most detached 8th-notes of the theme.

    II. And yet, in m. 5 (second part of the theme, first full bar), the F and low B-flat call for something lighter; perhaps the "downstroke on ONE string only", as the modern German school of pick-micromanagement would have called it. Ditto on the respective notes in the next bar.

    Regarding ornaments:

    III. In m. 4, I can get in a 6-note trill, no more than that: six "noodles" (E-D-E-D-E-D), then the printed C 32nd-note. There seems to be ample time for just that, considering the printed D is DOUBLE-dotted. If anyone here can cram in more notes than I, well, (s)he is obviously a better player than I.

    IV. In m. 8, however, all I can do is a simple, upper-neighbor mordent, F-G-F, like a 16th-note triplet, not a full trill. Ditto on better players than I.

    V. Question: In m. 8, coming off the tied F, do you start the A with an upstroke (my "default instict" from bowing) or otherwise? Why? (if I may ask)

    Comments, suggestions, ideas, experiences, welcome one and all.
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  16. #16
    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    Victor,

    I come off the trill on measure 4 and hit the 32nd note not really sure if I am playing a 32nd note or just a C note as fast as I can pick. #Kinda like a musical afterthought, or rushing through dinner to get to dessert. #That 32nd note causes me some stress.

    Likewise, in measure 8, I have been playing a mordent rather than a trill. #When I tried playing more than just the mordent it didn't sound quite right, as if the piece were ending on the wrong note.

    In measure 8 I play the A note with an upstroke. #This is the only way I have trained my self to get the timing right when starting a passage on the offbeat (if that is what you call it. #My musical vocabulary is a little slim these days). #

    -John.



    Ah! must --
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    Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    I. Obviously, we mandolinists use downstrokes a great deal more ehm... generously than violinists would have used downBOWS; I hold this truth to be self-evident, and applicable to most detached 8th-notes of the theme.
    Aaah but... are not our downstrokes equivalent to an upbow? In effect we hold a mandolin the other way round to a violin (or am I wrong). The mandolin must turn round through 180 degrees if you were to try and tuck it under your chin. I might be out depending on whether a violin is strung in the same "direction" as a mandolin (I don't know, but just assumed it was).

    Also, speaking in complete ignorance about violins... would not an up or down bow change depending on whether you were bowing the first of second pair of strings? i.e. the up for the treble-most string is in the opposite direction to the up for the bass-string.

    This is just a thought and bear in mind I know nothing about playing a violin and will need neither a gale or a constant wind to blow me over on this issue.

    Willing to learn though...

  18. #18

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    In reply to MandoJon:

    1) "... are not our downstrokes equivalent to an upbow?"
    No. Same direction of the pick and the bow in relation to the instrument's body.

    2) "...would not an up or down bow change depending on whether you were bowing the first of second pair of strings? #i.e. the up for the treble-most string is in the opposite direction to the up for the bass-string."
    Also no. Downbow is downbow, upbow is upbow, regardless of what string you are playing on.

    Perhaps it is my fault that I made the reference to bowing altogether; as this is not the, ehm... Violin Café, I ought to be more sparing —and less confusing— with my cross-references to bowed instrument. Hmmm...
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  19. #19

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    Buckley, I agree with you on the 32nd-note after the trill. I, too, try to jam it as close to, and as immediately before the note of final resolution. I don't subdivide mentally into 32 little microbeats; that sort of thing can hurt a guy my age.

    And, oh... the quote was standard parlance of the Stoics, and no original saying of mine. The usual allusion was to the building of character, as they viewed virtue as a habit, using such metaphors as "the mask gradually becoming the face." But I digress...

    Back to Tartini. Or was it "Tartini or bust"?
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    Ahh! so bow direction is in relation to the instrument body and not the floor! Please excuse my ignorance.

    I'll step back and lurk on this thread now because, while I am very interested in picking technique, my reading ability isn't up to the task. Though, I hope that by week 50, I'll be able to read well enough to try and repeat most of the experiences of the folk working on this.

  21. #21
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    How are you treating the 3/8 notes in measures 1, 2, 4 and 8? Tremolo or single-note? If tremoloed, then the 1/32-note disappears completely into the following resolving C, so I'd guess it has to be single-note.

    Martin

  22. #22

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    Exactly, MandoJon: The motion from the G-string(s) and towards the E-string(s) is by definition "downbow/stroke", and vice versa. You are right to have thought otherwise at first. Part geometry, part convention...

    Reading should not hamper you. We are not working this up for performance, so your own speed, your own comfort, and your own abilities are sufficient to participate in the learning experience.

    Besides, it's not like I know what I'm talking about...
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  23. #23

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    Martin, I'd say single strokes throughout this entire piece. I have already voiced my concern about incendiary effects on the pick...
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  24. #24
    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    Martin,

    I have used no tremolo in this piece. Mainly this is because I am saving up my ornament energy supplies for the variations.

    -John.
    Ah! must --
    Designer Infinite --
    Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
    --Francis Thompson

  25. #25
    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    I don't subdivide mentally into 32 little microbeats; that sort of thing can hurt a guy my age.
    That is funny. Thanks for the laugh.

    -John.
    Ah! must --
    Designer Infinite --
    Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
    --Francis Thompson

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