Is this ethical?

[Pete Summers]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Orig...item4abbad70a1

Are these really from Gibson? If so, is selling them legal and ethical?

[David Rambo]

Looks like they may have been pulled. I tried the site and the sale had ended.

[journeybear]

Wow! Unbelievable. And unbelievable that someone with nefarious intent seeing that being offered wouldn't just snap them up at the BIN price, whatever it is. Any such cost is chicken feed compared to the profit a potential counterfeiter would stand to realize. Don't cheap out, bubba! Hmmm ... maybe that's why bidding has ended ...

BTW, ''Item condition:Used'' Really?

[bratsche]

If authentic, the images left behind are enough for someone nefarious and semi-talented to snap up for free...

bratsche

[journeybear]

Thanks for the tip!




Kidding! I would never! But it does give me pause. And the seller has a 100% approval rating. Further evidence that ebay is too loosey-goosey.

[Stephen Perry]

I don't see any ethical issue here. There might be an ownership issue.

Using them to commit a fraud would be unethical and illegal.

But they're certainly nifty collectors' items.

I certainly don't want eBay cracking down on even more than they already do.

Regardless, I don't see how anyone other than the buyer and the seller and perhaps, just perhaps, Gibson would have any standing to "do" anything about these. I'd actually find having some framed to be pretty interesting!!

[brunello97]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Orig...item4abbad70a1

Are these really from Gibson? If so, is selling them legal and ethical?

Certainly depends on what type of ethics you or others practice (as supposed to say merely 'hold'.) Ethics and the law might overlap, but by design they are set out to differently describe behaviors. A lot of things, from my perspective, may be perfectly legal but quite unethical. And certainly the other way around.

Not exactly sure how I feel about this. Un po' sketchioso would probably describe it for me. A different set of evaluation criteria than what the law or ethical behavior might cover.

Mick

[dhergert]

Labels for every kind of instrument can be purchased... They are sometimes used for ethical reasons and are sometimes used for less than ethical reasons.

Mandos are not quite as easy to copy, but fake labels and other fake trademarks have been used on banjos since people began making replacement necks and tone rings for them. The same goes for any bolt-together instruments, including electric guitars, dobros, etc. Acoustic guitars and mandos are among the hardest to copy from scratch because they require a lot of work to make in the first place, however the original labels and peghead inlays are pretty easily duplicated and placed on instruments made by other builders.

Sometimes these fake trademarks are used for bona fide repairs and restorations, sometimes they are just used for forgeries.

The truth is, if you are wanting to authenticate an instrument, you need to either study up on it very well, or have a professional look at it... And often times do both. Never trust the common trade mark 100% for anything.

I could tell you some stories...

[Stephen Perry]

What is "Un po' sketchioso"? Nothing seems to come up on google search.

Legal ethics are even more bizarre. I'm putting together an ethics complaint about an attorney tomorrow. Should be entertaining and demanding.

[brunello97]

What is "Un po' sketchioso"? Nothing seems to come up on google search.

Legal ethics are even more bizarre. I'm putting together an ethics complaint about an attorney tomorrow. Should be entertaining and demanding.

Sorry, my bad. "A little bit sketchy" in Spanglish.

Mick

[MikeEdgerton]

This is discussed every now and again. There are real reasons to want one of these. If you are restoring an instrument you might want to replace the original sticker. No different than buying a new emblem for that 57 Chevrolet you're restoring. Nobody would do that you say? Believe me, they would and there would be nothing wrong with that. Slapping that thing on a pacrim mandolin and trying to pass it off as a Gibson, that would be a problem.

[JEStanek]

If you put one on your mandolin case as a sticker what would the harm be? There are certainly builders who made Gibson copies with all Gibson swag on them as well... some made it clear they were copies others didn't (the latter is unethical, IMHO but I'm no lawyer).

There are plenty of images of labels on the net and they are easy enough to make on your own...

Jamie

[Stephen Perry]

18th C violin label. Make good photocopy. Get rubber stamp of it made, keep the metal master that's made first. Buy old map. Trim edges to get raw material. Make ink with carbon black. Ink up metal master and print your labels on the old map edge. Cut out.

Perfectly ethical.

Stick in old violin that might be by that maker, to an unskilled eye. Unethical.

Sell that violin with description "labeled as." Unethical.

Knowingly selling that violin with the attribution "by" the maker, illegal.

Putting that label in a shadow box with all the equipment used to make it. Really fun!

There's a reason violin guys don't look at labels. I've actually been surprised after a couple of years to find a violin I own has a label. That's how important the label is.

[oneeyeross]

Make ink with carbon black.

If'n it were me I'd use iron oak gall ink, not carbon black...

[bmac]

There is nothing unethical about owning or even selling these labels. Printers often have access to thousands of such labels from all kinds of manufacturers. Only their use to defraud creates a problem and is, of course, criminal. I suppose you could paste one on your Gibson copy, and that would be quite illegal because that would be an attempt to defraud... But it is unlikely that anyone would make an issue of it cause lawsuits are really expensive. However if you were manufacturing a bunch of fake Gibsons and selling them as real you could be in real trouble. But lawsuits are always very very expensive for all parties involved.

[Ribak]

I kind of want them as name labels for my instrument cases now....

[Stephen Perry]

Lawsuits aren't always expensive. If a contract or law allows attorneys' fees, then there's a chance of making them even less expensive for one party. There's one I'm working on now, I think we'll settle it for about $1500 in fees & costs. That's rare.

Of course, small claims is pretty cheap. We'll even show up and run a simple one in our general court for $1200 sometimes.

Of course, we have one case with fees over $100,000 at the moment, but that's over a $12,000,000 thingie.

[Astro]

I know a guy that bought and wears a real copy of a NFL football jersey.

And he doesn't even play football.

Go figure.


I saw a VW beetle that had a mercedes emblem stuck up on the hood.

Didn't fool me.

I guess it would be illegal if he were trying to sell it as a mercedes.

Then again, it should be illegal to be stupid enough to be fooled by the emblem too.

You know what they say, Caveat imitator...or something like that

[Marty Henrickson]

.....Of course, we have one case with fees over $100,000 at the moment, but that's over a $12,000,000 thingie.

All this legalese confuses me. Is a "thingie" the same as a "whatchamacallit", or is it more of a "gizmo"?

[Stephen Perry]

Well, it's an active case, so it's just a "thingie" at the moment.

[brunello97]

I know a guy that bought and wears a real copy of a NFL football jersey.

And he doesn't even play football.

Go figure.


I saw a VW beetle that had a mercedes emblem stuck up on the hood.

Didn't fool me.

I guess it would be illegal if he were trying to sell it as a mercedes.

Then again, it should be illegal to be stupid enough to be fooled by the emblem too.

You know what they say, Caveat imitator...or something like that

No offense, bro, but that's quite a tin of red herring for you.

Mick

[JeffD]

18th C violin label. Make good photocopy. Get rubber stamp of it made, keep the metal master that's made first. Buy old map. Trim edges to get raw material. Make ink with carbon black. Ink up metal master and print your labels on the old map edge. Cut out.

Perfectly ethical.

Stick in old violin that might be by that maker, to an unskilled eye. Unethical.

Sell that violin with description "labeled as." Unethical.

Knowingly selling that violin with the attribution "by" the maker, illegal.

Putting that label in a shadow box with all the equipment used to make it. Really fun!

.

Great summary of the ethical landscape actually.

[JeffD]

I suppose you could paste one on your Gibson copy, and that would be quite illegal because that would be an attempt to defraud... .

Only if you attempted to sell it as a Gibson, or insure it as a Gibson.