Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Is this ethical?

  1. #1
    Registered User Pete Summers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    637

    Default Is this ethical?

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Orig...item4abbad70a1

    Are these really from Gibson? If so, is selling them legal and ethical?

  2. The following members say thank you to Pete Summers for this post:


  3. #2
    Registered User David Rambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Alden, Minnesota, 12 miles west of where I-90 and I-35 cross in Southern, Minnesota
    Posts
    462

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Looks like they may have been pulled. I tried the site and the sale had ended.
    "Put your hands to the wood
    Touch the music put there by the summer sun and wind
    The rhythms of the rain, locked within the rings
    And let your fingers find The Music in the Wood."
    Joe Grant and Al Parrish (chorus from The Music in the Wood)

  4. #3
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Key West
    Posts
    11,850
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Wow! Unbelievable. And unbelievable that someone with nefarious intent seeing that being offered wouldn't just snap them up at the BIN price, whatever it is. Any such cost is chicken feed compared to the profit a potential counterfeiter would stand to realize. Don't cheap out, bubba! Hmmm ... maybe that's why bidding has ended ...

    BTW, ''Item condition:Used'' Really?
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Blues Mando Social Group
    Gibson Mandolins Social Group
    North Florida Mandolin Players Social Group

    The big blowhard in his conch shell blowing championship form

  5. #4
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    south florida
    Posts
    2,791

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    If authentic, the images left behind are enough for someone nefarious and semi-talented to snap up for free...

    bratsche
    "There are two refuges from the miseries of life: music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

    GearGems - Gifts & apparel for musicians and more!
    MandolaViola's YouTube Channel

  6. #5
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Key West
    Posts
    11,850
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Thanks for the tip!




    Kidding! I would never! But it does give me pause. And the seller has a 100% approval rating. Further evidence that ebay is too loosey-goosey.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Blues Mando Social Group
    Gibson Mandolins Social Group
    North Florida Mandolin Players Social Group

    The big blowhard in his conch shell blowing championship form

  7. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Chicagoland, IL, Southside
    Posts
    3,007

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    I don't see any ethical issue here. There might be an ownership issue.

    Using them to commit a fraud would be unethical and illegal.

    But they're certainly nifty collectors' items.

    I certainly don't want eBay cracking down on even more than they already do.

    Regardless, I don't see how anyone other than the buyer and the seller and perhaps, just perhaps, Gibson would have any standing to "do" anything about these. I'd actually find having some framed to be pretty interesting!!
    Stephen Perry
    www.giannaviolins.com - Primarily violin family
    mandovoodoo.com - Acoustic blueprinting
    South Side Chicagoland

  8. #7
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor/Austin
    Posts
    5,235

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Summers View Post
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Orig...item4abbad70a1

    Are these really from Gibson? If so, is selling them legal and ethical?
    Certainly depends on what type of ethics you or others practice (as supposed to say merely 'hold'.) Ethics and the law might overlap, but by design they are set out to differently describe behaviors. A lot of things, from my perspective, may be perfectly legal but quite unethical. And certainly the other way around.

    Not exactly sure how I feel about this. Un po' sketchioso would probably describe it for me. A different set of evaluation criteria than what the law or ethical behavior might cover.

    Mick
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
    ______________________

    '05 Cuisinart Toaster
    '93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
    '12 Stetson Open Road
    '06 Bialetti expresso maker
    '14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig

  9. #8
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Blue Zone, California
    Posts
    1,258
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Labels for every kind of instrument can be purchased... They are sometimes used for ethical reasons and are sometimes used for less than ethical reasons.

    Mandos are not quite as easy to copy, but fake labels and other fake trademarks have been used on banjos since people began making replacement necks and tone rings for them. The same goes for any bolt-together instruments, including electric guitars, dobros, etc. Acoustic guitars and mandos are among the hardest to copy from scratch because they require a lot of work to make in the first place, however the original labels and peghead inlays are pretty easily duplicated and placed on instruments made by other builders.

    Sometimes these fake trademarks are used for bona fide repairs and restorations, sometimes they are just used for forgeries.

    The truth is, if you are wanting to authenticate an instrument, you need to either study up on it very well, or have a professional look at it... And often times do both. Never trust the common trade mark 100% for anything.

    I could tell you some stories...
    Last edited by dhergert; Sep-04-2012 at 8:52pm.

  10. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Chicagoland, IL, Southside
    Posts
    3,007

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    What is "Un po' sketchioso"? Nothing seems to come up on google search.

    Legal ethics are even more bizarre. I'm putting together an ethics complaint about an attorney tomorrow. Should be entertaining and demanding.
    Stephen Perry
    www.giannaviolins.com - Primarily violin family
    mandovoodoo.com - Acoustic blueprinting
    South Side Chicagoland

  11. #10
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor/Austin
    Posts
    5,235

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Perry View Post
    What is "Un po' sketchioso"? Nothing seems to come up on google search.

    Legal ethics are even more bizarre. I'm putting together an ethics complaint about an attorney tomorrow. Should be entertaining and demanding.
    Sorry, my bad. "A little bit sketchy" in Spanglish.

    Mick
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
    ______________________

    '05 Cuisinart Toaster
    '93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
    '12 Stetson Open Road
    '06 Bialetti expresso maker
    '14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig

  12. #11
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    40.1646 N, 74.2083 W
    Posts
    23,233

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    This is discussed every now and again. There are real reasons to want one of these. If you are restoring an instrument you might want to replace the original sticker. No different than buying a new emblem for that 57 Chevrolet you're restoring. Nobody would do that you say? Believe me, they would and there would be nothing wrong with that. Slapping that thing on a pacrim mandolin and trying to pass it off as a Gibson, that would be a problem.

  13. #12
    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Pottstown, Pennsylvania, United States
    Posts
    13,851
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    If you put one on your mandolin case as a sticker what would the harm be? There are certainly builders who made Gibson copies with all Gibson swag on them as well... some made it clear they were copies others didn't (the latter is unethical, IMHO but I'm no lawyer).

    There are plenty of images of labels on the net and they are easy enough to make on your own...

    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

    + Give Blood, Save a Life +

  14. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Chicagoland, IL, Southside
    Posts
    3,007

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    18th C violin label. Make good photocopy. Get rubber stamp of it made, keep the metal master that's made first. Buy old map. Trim edges to get raw material. Make ink with carbon black. Ink up metal master and print your labels on the old map edge. Cut out.

    Perfectly ethical.

    Stick in old violin that might be by that maker, to an unskilled eye. Unethical.

    Sell that violin with description "labeled as." Unethical.

    Knowingly selling that violin with the attribution "by" the maker, illegal.

    Putting that label in a shadow box with all the equipment used to make it. Really fun!

    There's a reason violin guys don't look at labels. I've actually been surprised after a couple of years to find a violin I own has a label. That's how important the label is.
    Stephen Perry
    www.giannaviolins.com - Primarily violin family
    mandovoodoo.com - Acoustic blueprinting
    South Side Chicagoland

  15. The following members say thank you to Stephen Perry for this post:


  16. #14

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Perry View Post
    Make ink with carbon black.
    If'n it were me I'd use iron oak gall ink, not carbon black...

  17. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Gilbertsville. New York
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    There is nothing unethical about owning or even selling these labels. Printers often have access to thousands of such labels from all kinds of manufacturers. Only their use to defraud creates a problem and is, of course, criminal. I suppose you could paste one on your Gibson copy, and that would be quite illegal because that would be an attempt to defraud... But it is unlikely that anyone would make an issue of it cause lawsuits are really expensive. However if you were manufacturing a bunch of fake Gibsons and selling them as real you could be in real trouble. But lawsuits are always very very expensive for all parties involved.
    Bart McNeil

  18. #16
    Registered User Ribak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Ypsilanti
    Posts
    41

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    I kind of want them as name labels for my instrument cases now....

  19. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Chicagoland, IL, Southside
    Posts
    3,007

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Lawsuits aren't always expensive. If a contract or law allows attorneys' fees, then there's a chance of making them even less expensive for one party. There's one I'm working on now, I think we'll settle it for about $1500 in fees & costs. That's rare.

    Of course, small claims is pretty cheap. We'll even show up and run a simple one in our general court for $1200 sometimes.

    Of course, we have one case with fees over $100,000 at the moment, but that's over a $12,000,000 thingie.
    Stephen Perry
    www.giannaviolins.com - Primarily violin family
    mandovoodoo.com - Acoustic blueprinting
    South Side Chicagoland

  20. #18
    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charleston SC
    Posts
    2,430

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    I know a guy that bought and wears a real copy of a NFL football jersey.

    And he doesn't even play football.

    Go figure.


    I saw a VW beetle that had a mercedes emblem stuck up on the hood.

    Didn't fool me.

    I guess it would be illegal if he were trying to sell it as a mercedes.

    Then again, it should be illegal to be stupid enough to be fooled by the emblem too.

    You know what they say, Caveat imitator...or something like that

  21. #19
    Highly Lonesome Marty Henrickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Woodstock, AL
    Posts
    955

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Perry
    .....Of course, we have one case with fees over $100,000 at the moment, but that's over a $12,000,000 thingie.
    All this legalese confuses me. Is a "thingie" the same as a "whatchamacallit", or is it more of a "gizmo"?
    Gibson Jam Master A-Standard #56
    Martin D-28 Clarence White #103
    Gallagher Doc Watson

    www.instacanv.as/martyhenrickson

  22. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Chicagoland, IL, Southside
    Posts
    3,007

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Well, it's an active case, so it's just a "thingie" at the moment.
    Stephen Perry
    www.giannaviolins.com - Primarily violin family
    mandovoodoo.com - Acoustic blueprinting
    South Side Chicagoland

  23. #21
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor/Austin
    Posts
    5,235

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I know a guy that bought and wears a real copy of a NFL football jersey.

    And he doesn't even play football.

    Go figure.


    I saw a VW beetle that had a mercedes emblem stuck up on the hood.

    Didn't fool me.

    I guess it would be illegal if he were trying to sell it as a mercedes.

    Then again, it should be illegal to be stupid enough to be fooled by the emblem too.

    You know what they say, Caveat imitator...or something like that
    No offense, bro, but that's quite a tin of red herring for you.

    Mick
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
    ______________________

    '05 Cuisinart Toaster
    '93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
    '12 Stetson Open Road
    '06 Bialetti expresso maker
    '14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig

  24. #22
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    23,136
    Blog Entries
    52

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Perry View Post
    18th C violin label. Make good photocopy. Get rubber stamp of it made, keep the metal master that's made first. Buy old map. Trim edges to get raw material. Make ink with carbon black. Ink up metal master and print your labels on the old map edge. Cut out.

    Perfectly ethical.

    Stick in old violin that might be by that maker, to an unskilled eye. Unethical.

    Sell that violin with description "labeled as." Unethical.

    Knowingly selling that violin with the attribution "by" the maker, illegal.

    Putting that label in a shadow box with all the equipment used to make it. Really fun!

    .
    Great summary of the ethical landscape actually.
    Indulge responsibly!

    The entire staff
    funny....

  25. #23
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    23,136
    Blog Entries
    52

    Default Re: Is this ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmac View Post
    I suppose you could paste one on your Gibson copy, and that would be quite illegal because that would be an attempt to defraud... .
    Only if you attempted to sell it as a Gibson, or insure it as a Gibson.
    Indulge responsibly!

    The entire staff
    funny....

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •