Top of the line loar f5 model does not have a bass bar?

[Charles E.]

You clearly haven't been at this as long as I have. I'm not proud to know all that junk, but it's really out there, and has lessons to teach us.

And the lesson is that junk instruments sound like crap!

[Paul Hostetter]

And the lesson is that junk instruments sound like crap!

Actually, this lesson is that bassbars are not particularly critical. I've braced weak and collapsing tops with braces you might be iclined to call "tone bars" or "bassbars," but it's possible, with the right skills, to carve a great top and skip bars altogether, and not sacrifice tone and response.

[dcoventry]

Actually, this lesson is that bassbars are not particularly critical. I've braced weak and collapsing tops with braces you might be iclined to call "tone bars" or "bassbars," but it's possible, with the right skills, to carve a great top and skip bars altogether, and not sacrifice tone and response.

To wit: there is more than one way to skin a cat. The cat does not like any of them.

By which I mean there are many ways to carve a top, do graduations, use different wood combos, body styles etc. and still acheive superior sound. A mando w/o tonebars and x-bracing can still be a great, great instrument.

Think outside the box, your mind is like a parachute, it has to be open to work and all that jazz.

[j. condino]

If Lloyd Loar were living today....

If Lloyd Loar were living today he'd be making cutting edge electronic and hip hop music on his iphone and telling a bunch of crusty old guys stuck in 1923 "why that ain't no part of nuthin'!!!"

[dcoventry]

If Lloyd Loar were living today and found out someone was making an F5 copy without tone bars and using his name without his permission to boot he would likely be getting a Philly lawyer for a lawsuit. I thought Greg Rich has his hands in making these imports and can't believe he woud allow it. If Bill Monroe was alive and was told these F5 copies don't have tone bars he would simply say "why that ain't no part of nothin' ".

Well, maybe, maybe not.

If we look at what ol' Lloyd did after Gibson, it was pretty cutting edge, if not necessarily successful. I believe Loar wanted to push the envelope of technology, make things better, more efficient, toneful and louder as was required by playing umamplified in an orchestra.

I think he used Virzi, tonebars, f-holes red spruce, graduations etc. because they made a better instrument. The guy whose designs he UPDATED(orville?) was prolly pretty pissed and said, "that ain't no part of nothin".

It's my belief that what is really no part of nothing is a closed mind that does not allow for beneficial change.

When Monroe begat Bluegrass, somebody was angry; when 3 finger rolling style banjer came about lots of folks cringed, they still do; when Vasser played jazzy, folks balked; when Grisman played Dawg, folks blanched!!

IT'S ALL PART OF SOMETHING!

If you simply don't agree or don't like it.....well.....don't listen. But to claim superiority or righteousness is a little presumptuous, no?

[dcoventry]

If Lloyd Loar were living today he'd be making cutting edge electronic and hip hop music on his iphone and telling a bunch of crusty old guys stuck in 1923 "why that ain't no part of nuthin'!!!"

Honestly, Prolly yes. Lloyd had no interest in the status quo then, and later. My God, he may have made a better bagpipe and louder, too!

the horror.

[j. condino]

My God, he may have made a better bagpipe and louder, too!

the horror.

I was at a very nice Irish session last week at the Swannannoa Gathering when someone started playing a VERY loud bagpipe, oblivious to anyone around them; instantly about thirty people all stopped playing and started screaming at him to shut the $#@% up!!!

[almeriastrings]

I think he used Virzi, tonebars, f-holes red spruce, graduations etc. because they made a better instrument.

From the evidence I have seen (and heard first-hand from people who were "in the industry" even as late as the 1960's) the wood buyers for Gibson (and C.F Martin) years ago obsessed far less which species of 'spruce' they were using than do builders and players today. They used what was most readily available, at a good price which met their basic specifications as to be usable, in other words, acceptable colour, quartering, freedom from defects. In most (not all) cases in the pre-war era, that did happen to be Red spruce - simply because it was relatively local, and good sized logs were readily available fairly cheaply. After WWII, that changed, and availability of good grade, wide pieces, was severely restricted, prompting a switch at C F Martin in 1946 to sitka. Other species were also used, including Englemann... none of these changes were even considered important enough to list in the catalogs of the time. The prime motives behind these various materials being used was not 'sonic' as such, but down to more pragmatic reasons such as pricing and availability. I also know (first hand, because I was involved in it) that a several large US makers have, at various times, purchased top-woods from Germany of very uncertain origin and species.... stuff sold as "Swiss Pine", for example, that I guarantee had never been anywhere near a Toblerone...

We are much more detail-oriented today, and want to know this stuff. Years ago, it was just "spruce".

[dcoventry]

From the evidence I have seen (and heard first-hand from people who were "in the industry" even as late as the 1960's) the wood buyers for Gibson (and C.F Martin) years ago obsessed far less which species of 'spruce' they were using than do builders and players today. They used what was most readily available, at a good price which met their basic specifications as to be usable, in other words, acceptable colour, quartering, freedom from defects. In most (not all) cases in the pre-war era, that did happen to be Red spruce - simply because it was relatively local, and good sized logs were readily available fairly cheaply. After WWII, that changed, and availability of good grade, wide pieces, was severely restricted, prompting a switch at C F Martin in 1946 to sitka. Other species were also used, including Englemann... none of these changes were even considered important enough to list in the catalogs of the time. The prime motives behind these various materials being used was not 'sonic' as such, but down to more pragmatic reasons such as pricing and availability. I also know (first hand, because I was involved in it) that a several large US makers have, at various times, purchased top-woods from Germany of very uncertain origin and species.... stuff sold as "Swiss Pine", for example, that I guarantee had never been anywhere near a Toblerone...

We are much more detail-oriented today, and want to know this stuff. Years ago, it was just "spruce".

Good Stuff. We obsess over details in hindsight, but the whole dealis to get a good instrument, and obviously there are varying ways to get there. Good wood, good design, a good luthier to optimize it all. F-holes, ovals or variations in graduation not withstanding, an instrument must work as holistic system; the idea is aim for a synergy. Anyone can get 2+2=4. to get 2+2=6 is a much better aim.

[Charles E.]

Actually, this lesson is that bassbars are not particularly critical. I've braced weak and collapsing tops with braces you might be iclined to call "tone bars" or "bassbars," but it's possible, with the right skills, to carve a great top and skip bars altogether, and not sacrifice tone and response.

Paul, we have different views on this but I will keep an open mind. And yes you have been around longer then I have. However I have been thinking about this material and wondering if any one is useing it.

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdpro...dHeader=+Nomex

Cheers

[BradKlein]

Wow! I think hollow honeycombed tops deserve their own thread in the builder's section. I can't wait to hear/see what folks come up with.

[CES]

Wow! I think hollow honeycombed tops deserve their own thread in the builder's section. I can't wait to hear/see what folks come up with.

Brad, I can't recall the luthier's name (McNight, maybe???), but he's been building with computer guided/cut honeycombed braces for quite a while, now. He replaces the typical braces with the wooden honeycombed structure. Reportedly makes a few varieties of "higher end" fingerpickers. Great pictures, though I've never played one. Heard of him in an Acoustic Guitar magazine from 2010 or 2011...

There are also a few guys out there making true double tops, too...interesting concepts...

[Greenmando]

Top of the line loar f5 model does not have a bass bar?
I have been told that the top model of the relatively new Loar F5 mandolin does not have a bass bar. Are there any experiences or comments regarding the sound, volume, tone, structural strength or a possible change in the hand carved thickness to compensate for the lack of a bass bar? It will be interesting to see if this concept spreads to other models or to other builders.

What I find funny is that top of the line and Loar mandolins is used in the same sentence.

[dcoventry]

What I find funny is that top of the line and Loar mandolins is used in the same sentence.

What I find even more humorous is that Gibson never particularly honored Loar and that Greg Rich saw fit to do so.

Funniest of all, is that we all make such a big deal out of it and Gibson apparently could not care less.

[Mike Bunting]

There you go, making a big deal of it again.

[dcoventry]

There you go, making a big deal of it again.

Big Deal? Moi? Mais, non!

I honestly just find the humor in this particular situation, along with any others. I think it's worth poking at, so i do. My MO, SOP, BFD, and LMFAO.

[Mike Bunting]

Lsmft

[dcoventry]

lsmft

Less smiles, more frowns today?

ok. Tygbdupw.

PS - That is Thank you, God Bless, drink up, pick well.

[Mike Bunting]

Less smiles, more frowns today?

ok. Tygbdupw.

PS - That is Thank you, God Bless, drink up, pick well.

You just told me that you are of a younger generation. L.S.M.F.T= Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco

BTW correctly, you should have written "fewer smiles". I am sure you know why.

[dcoventry]

You just told me that you are of a younger generation. L.S.M.F.T= Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco

BTW correctly, you should have written "fewer smiles". I am sure you know why.

Mike, dang I knew that one, too, but out of context it just didn't ring a bell. Here are a few more odd takes:

Acronym Definition
LSMFT Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco (advertising slogan)
LSMFT Liposclerosing Myxofibrous Tumor
LSMFT Lord Save Me from Truman
LSMFT Let's Stop, My Finger's Tired
LSMFT Low Self esteem Means Friction and Trouble

[BradKlein]

Long Silly Mandolin Forum Topic?

[Mike Bunting]

Long Silly Mandolin Forum Topic?

Yes!

[dcoventry]

Long Silly Mandolin Forum Topic?

That is genius!

[doc holiday]

"Top of the line loar f5?"...... haven't made them since 1924

[dcoventry]

Well Doc, technically there was never a Loar F5 of any sort at any time, top of the line or otherwise. There WERE Gibson F5's that were top of the line, and heck, they had tonebars but no "bass bars"!