Do you ever get discouraged?

[JLee]

Chris Thile inspired me to play the mandolin. I didn't even know what it was until I heard "When You Come Back Down" and was mesmerized by it a few years ago. I wanted a mandolin and saved up for it for over a year. I wanted it more than anything. I finally got one and started playing in April of '04. I took private lessons for awhile but now I'm in grad school so I'm not taking lessons anymore but I am very dedicated. I practice a lot but probably not as much as I want to. I really would love to maybe have a band one day even if we don't perform for anyone. I just want to go somewhere with this. I love playing mandolin. Am I crazy to think that I could really be that good one day? I mean my teacher has been playing for 30 years. Chris has been playing since he was 5. It feels like even if I spent 20 years on it I still wouldn't be that good.

Please post how you feel about this. How long have you been playing? Do you just play for fun by yourself? Do you ever get discouraged? If you practice daily, how long do your sessions last? Is there a possibility that I can still be good even if I can't devote all of my time to the mandolin? When would I know I'm good enough for a band?

[John Bertotti]

Discouragement is a part of the process. I get discourage every time I play. Not every thing discourages me just certain things and they change daily. One day one part will go smooth then I'll try something else and fall flat on my face, the next day vice a versa. I just don't let it bother me. I figure out why it went bad then next time correct it or at least work on it. I don't have any answers for the rest of your questions because I'm as new as you just a bit, well maybe more then a bit, older then you. Someone actually told me I shouldn't bother trying to learn anything at my age and that was 18 years ago. I say.... them. I'll learn it if I want and nobody is going to get in my way. If someone wants to stop this jarhead they'll have to kill me. John


I hope I don't sound to psycho above I'm really quite easygoing. Really. John

[JLee]

Thanks so much for the encouragement. No I don't think you're psycho. What you said is good. They say if you believe you can achieve something then you will achieve it. I am 25 so I guess I have some time but I want it to happen soon.

[fiddle5]

I've been playing both mandolin and fiddle for about ten years. Though its very inspiring to listen to the likes of Thile and others, you have to consider the amount of "time in" . #Many musicains who have started at an early age gave up a lot in order to take lessons and stay devoted to thier instruments. Its also thier profession and many have likey spent many years educating themselves for it. I also have to realistically consider that even though I started ten years ago, I do not have the amount of hours playing as would a pro who plays 8 hours a day, five days a week, 12 months a year , ect. #

As for being in a rut, I think everyone does. The best thing that helps me is private lessons, and I still continue to take them whenever possible, there is no plateau of knowledge to be reached. I'll continue to take lessons for another ten years if given the opportunity . A private instructor will address the areas and techniques that you lack, and will try to move forward on those items. Books and videos are great supplements , but they have a "one size fits all" approach to tend to the masses rather than an individual. If you are going to use a book, use a method book and stick to the excercises , not moving forward until it is mastered. Its easy to say something is boring , then just turn the page.

Short of more instruction, work on your obvious shortfalls, and stay on them untill they have improved. I find the areas that are lacking, come to light very quickly in a jam enviorment. The people who are more motivated, are the ones that excell the fastest. Anytime you can play well enough to know the material and/or cover up your mistakes is a good time to play in a band. The ability to improvise is golden.


mike

[sbarnes]

real short/honest reply

no you probably won't get as good as thile, dawg, etc....
but you can become 'good'

[grsnovi]

The trick to "being good enough to be in a band" is to find people who are at the same level as you. Playing WITH people is a LOT different than playing alone in your room - often you will find encouragement and inspiration from something that somebody else will do or play.

The time is now! Go find some like minded folks and BE in a band...

...then come back in a couple of months and ask: "How do you know when your band is good enough to play out?"

[fatt-dad]

Real short honest reply - I'm discouraged right now (but I still practice).

f-d

[glauber]

real short/honest reply

no you probably won't get as good as thile, dawg, etc....
but you can become 'good'

You can become good enough, to practice a craft that will bring enjoyment to you and others. That's not a bad thing to aspire to.

Discouragement is normal. Keep going, and it will get better.

[John Flynn]

Q: How long have you been playing?
A: Over 12 years, guitar for 20 before that.

Q: Do you just play for fun by yourself?
A: All the time. Next to playing with a group, it is the most fun I have playing.

Q: Do you ever get discouraged?
A: This has changed over the years. I used to get discouraged in general, like you, because I wasn't as good as (Sam Bush, Chris Thile, fill in the blank). I don't feel that way at all anymore. I decided that while I can admire and learn from those guys, they will always be the best at sounding like them and I will be the best at sounding like me. I came to realize that I have something unique to contribute to music, even if it is not as a "famous professional" and even if I couldn't beat them in a playing contest. You can waste a lot of precious playing time, energy and enjoyment worrying about "how good you aren't." I do sometimes get discouraged when I have performed in front of an audience and I screwed something up. But that's a different kind of discouragement and fortunately it doesn't happen very often, at least not bad enough that an audience would notice!

Q: If you practice daily, how long do your sessions last?
A: I don't think in terms of "practicing." I think in terms of "playing," whether it's learning tunes, playing whole tunes or drilling on techniques. I play as much as I can, every day. Sometimes it's minutes, sometimes it's hours, depending on my hectic schedule, but I don't keep track. For me "practice" is something I have to force myself to do. "Playing" is pure joy and a refuge from "what I have to do." Same activity, different mindset.

Q: Is there a possibility that I can still be good even if I can't devote all of my time to the mandolin?
A: Absolutely! You are probably good at playing something right now. The trick is to get even better at playing even more things and ultimately putting your unique self more and more into it. Playing music is an art, not a contest. There really is no good, better, best. That is an illusion. There is music that works and music that doesn't. A simple, beautiful tune played with true feeling, rather than affected feeling, is a greater joy to most people's ears than a contest-winner that is all speed and technique, but no soul. For instance, there are many "better" players than Bill Monroe, but no one can take his place.

Q: When would I know I'm good enough for a band?
A: When you can get along with a group of other musicians both socially and artistically, and you can add something significant to the tunes they play. It's more about getting along than it is about proficiency. Look at Ringo -LOL!

To sum up, playing mando is supposed to be fun and fulfilling, not discouraging. That is all in your head and completely under your control, right now. I know this is probably over-used and trite, but it's true: You need to learn to enjoy the journey and stop caring about the destination. That can work just as well in other aspect of life also. Good luck to you.

[JLee]

Thanks all of you and what you said was great Gary. I will take your advice with the band thing. Also, Mando Johnny thanks for answering all of my questions. Thanks for reminding me about the journey. You are right. I keep forgetting that with grad school too. I just want to finish as soon as I can and everyone keeps telling me to stop worrying about it and enjoy the journey. Thanks guys! I'm glad I found this board.

[danb]

JLee: agree with what others say. I bet grad school is coloring your view of learning the mandolin as well, so that it appears to be a task that can be completed. From the very start, I always liked to set a goal and just work on it until I got it, no hurry really. Remeber that you'll always get it eventually.. time and pressure will always win

[Milan Christi]

For the "what it's worth" department:

When I was in Jr. High School my band teacher took his son and me to hear Count Basie's band. I remember the lead trombone player - Grover Mitchell - as a trombone player I had never heard anything so cool up to that point in my musical career. I told my teacher, "I'd give anything to play like that."

His reply: "Well, he gave his life."

That always sums it up for me. Chris Thile and the other hot mando slingers aren't pursuing grad school or anything else other than music. That makes a huge difference. When I played professionally I seldom got discourgaed because I played all day every day. Now that I'm working on the mandolin as an "avocation" I find my growth to be much slower. But it's still growth.

I play better now than I did six months ago but the difference is very subtle. If you record yourself a lot you can track your progress. If I get bummed out I play back some of the stuff I recorded a year ago - all of a sudden I get encouraged all over again.

Just don't stop playing.

[Don Christy]

I'm 38 and I've only been playing a year. I get discouraged at times. Then I remember the first time I picked up the mando and how far i've come since then. Heck, my dog scout doesn't even leave the room when I play now!

I think Mando Johnny nailed it, but I will add my $.02 worth. You don't have to be as "good" as Thile, Bush or the Dawg to be in a band. They are (by many) considered to be the best of the best. There are thousands of professional musicians who make a living playing that are probably not as "good" as those guys. There are even more players who are in bands, playing out, having a blast, and not making a living at it. They probably aren't as "good" as those guys either.

Music is about playing in the true sense of the word. Enjoy the playing.

Last thought. When you get around to taking lessons again, try some group lessons. You'll often find yourself with others that are more or less proficient, you'll feel part of something, and it's really fun.

Just keep playing, have fun, good luck
Don

[mandofiddle]

Well, I was going to write a long reply until i read Mando Johny's post, and he pretty much nailed it. #I will mention something that I've noticed over the last few years though, that I haven't experienced with anything else besides playing music and the mandolin.

The funny thing about this instrument is that the more you learn and the better you get at it, the more you realize you don't know. #You have to understand that playing the mandolin is a journey, and the journey is what it's about. #There is no destination. #So when you get discouraged that you're not progressing as fast as you'd like, realize that if you are practicing and playing, then you are progressing and still on the journey. #Whether you immediately see those results or not, it is happening.

I started playing mandolin when I was 21, and am 29 now. #I know I'll never be as good as Thile or Dawg, and have changed my viewpoint over the years to not really want that. #I now write a lot of music, and concentrate on that just as much as my playing. #I play in a band and absolutely LOVE it.

Dave

[Bob DeVellis]

JLee -- Doing both grad school and trying to master a new instrument is a lot to deal with at once. I would suggest you consider the mandolin as a form of relaxation. I suspect school is challenging enough and that trying to "strive for excellence" in two different areas isn't allowing much down time. One option is to consider the mandolin an antidote to the demands for excellence that education poses. Do it just to enjoy it. You'll gain skills along the way and you'll be well placed to pursue it with more focused energy when school demands lessen. In the meantime, use your mandolin to lower stress, not increase it.

Everybody has their own style and this approach may not work for you, but I think it's at least worth considering.

[peterbc]

A friend of mine were chatting and he said something to the effect that you can't be good unless you think you suck, and I think he's got a very good point. If you think you're good then there's nothing else to do and no way to progress, but if (like me!) you stink, you can only get better!

[otterly2k]

JLee-
I agree with everything above, and would emphasize the importance of playing with other people. now. don't wait. In my experience, it is one of the best antidotes to feeling stuck and discouraged.

The key, imho, is to find someone(s) to play with who are either similar in skill level to yourself or who have different strengths and weakness to your own. Then you can teach each other what you are good at and the relationship is reciprocal. It can be a drag to be playing a lot with someone who is always teaching you, or to be playing with someone that needs you to constantly teach them.

And also, cut yourself some slack. Grad school is all encompassing... I know, I've done it twice...and both times, my music suffered for lack of time and attention. If you keep music as your #1 "extracurricular" (and make sure it is on your schedule in some capacity) you can still play enough to enjoy, for others to enjoy, etc. even if it doesn't become your career.

above all... enjoy!

[jasona]

JLee -- Doing both grad school and trying to master a new instrument is a lot to deal with at once. I would suggest you consider the mandolin as a form of relaxation. I suspect school is challenging enough and that trying to "strive for excellence" in two different areas isn't allowing much down time. One option is to consider the mandolin an antidote to the demands for excellence that education poses. Do it just to enjoy it. You'll gain skills along the way and you'll be well placed to pursue it with more focused energy when school demands lessen. In the meantime, use your mandolin to lower stress, not increase it.

Everybody has their own style and this approach may not work for you, but I think it's at least worth considering.

Hear hear. Now that I am out of grad school and into the "real world" of the ivory tower I find that, while the demands are slightly lower, the pressure is not. My mandolin takes those stresses and melts them away. Yes, even scale exercises. My wife notices a big difference in me after I play, and of course now that I sound almost musical finds the whole thing less abrasive all around.

[glauber]

Sometimes looking at the music thing from a different angle helps getting unstuck. If you haven't yet, check out the books:

Effortless Mastery by Kenny Werner, and
Free Play by Stephen Nachmanovitch.

You can usually get them cheap from the used-book places online.

[Katie]

JLee, we have a lot in common. I just started playing mandolin in June and I'm in the middle of grad school. I'm lucky enough to be studying music so I'm surrounded by musicians who love to play. I found some folks who wanted to play...well...folk music on secondary instruments. We started last semester and will hopefully get more dedicated this semester. Listen to the big names, but don't try to be like them. We already have them for that. Always set yourself obtainable short and long term goals...things you know you can achieve. Find at least one other person who is at the same level as you. More will follow.

And I totally agree with what was said earlier, as a grad student do this for the enjoyment of it. If all it's doing is adding to your frustration, dial back the intensity. I used to love playing trumpet as an undergrad, but my teacher and I pushed too hard. I haven't touched it since college because by the end I hated it. Don't do that to yourself.

Frustration is part of the territory. Just don't make it the entire geography.

*^_^*
Katie

[reindoggy]

I seem to learn in plateaus. Right now, I'm at a flat spot, but I know, from past experience, that something will come along and take me to the next level if I keep poking along at it.

Try new styles and sounds for inspiration, and you learn the most if you're the most inexperienced hand at the jam.

[edmando]

I teach music, and there is one thing I tell all my students:
Practice is the only thing you can do to get better, and if you practice, you will get better. Period.
It seems simple, but some of you may have had the profound, whoaaaaa understanding of that, and you'll know what I mean.
If you practice, you will get better. The more you practice, the better you'll get. If you want to spend a year doing only that one thing, and you study with a good teacher, and practice your *** off, you will get a lot better, fast.

Practice. You'll get better. There is no shortcut.

E

[dtb]

don't know if I can help out here or not. But my view is the same as a lot here. Playing with folks that are on the same level as you are is great. I've had the occasion to play with some pickers that are way ahead of myself, mando and guitar, and most, I'd quess in the 95% range, welcome you to a jam, and carry on. They'll let you try a solo, if you want, but are just as comfortable if you decline. But that 5% you may happen to fall in on requires a lot of will power, to just put your stuff up and listen. I've had pickers tell me to move on. And of course, I moved on. But I'll tell you this, I surely avoid those folks. To me, IMO, that is NOT what bluegrass is about. More than any other genre, bluegrass is a fellowship kind of thing, and if a player is so good, or thinks they are, and puts out vibes, letting someone know they are welcome to listen, but not play, then I don't need that. The little gang I play with are all pretty much on the same talent level, and I'll say, we can all hold our own in some traditional 3 chord bluegrass , but one thing we have all been doing for years, and all agree, is if a fellow picker shows up, regardless of the talent, then he joins in. Most of the time we have to do the normal begging, and making sure they know they are not messing anything up. We'll show'em the chords of a tune, slow it down, or whatever it takes to make them feel right at home. Hopefully, by doing this, it'll help out a picker, and they'll feel like they are welcome to come back. This is my view on the whole deal. I've been on both ends this, and the 95% time is a great thing.

[John Ritchhart]

Dan, we never met but I know you're a good man, sight unseen. Bless you, buddy, and all those helpful people out there like you. Thanks for the cheering up and thanks for the reverence. We could use some more of that in this old world.

[dtb]

I missed some of the original questions here, so. I've been playing the mando for a long time, like 25 or so years, and still play like a newb. 3-4 years ago my pal who played banjo decides he wants to start mandoing, so I went "back" to the guitar. When we used to gig, we practiced fairly often, like 2-3 times a week. Now we just jam around some, and get together once a week. As to my practice now, well, mostly on guitar. I do a lot of home recording, and have been working on that for a few years. I mostly pick up the mando when I listen to music, and for recording, but still get to take off on it when we jam ever now and then. I love playing the mando, and would love to own a "nice" one, but my monies the last 10 years have gone to home recording gear, and of course, I "had" to have a Martin guitar. As to getting better, well I think my rhythm chops are great, and improvising on single note lead work is there. I have trouble picking up exact notes on fiddle tunz and stuff, but that's mostly because I'd rather improvise. And I think anyone who puts the time in, can be a good player. A Dawg, or Thile, or Bush, well, that's different. But you all have seem'em, the young kids out there that can really go. I saw a 14 year old kid in Hilton Head last year doing Grisman tunz so well, I was scared to close my eyes. And another drawback, which I regret, is not taking music in school. I'm sure theory and stuff would be a great help, regardless of the instrument. I, (we) play for fun now, and turn down gigs all the time. 12 or so years of that was enough. It's a fellowship thing for us now, with no pressure or stress at all. Man, some nights we get into listening to tunz, and talking about bluegrass, instruments and stuff, and may not even pick up our own. We're getting old I guess.