Vegan mandolins?

[Zyzzyzus]

Petrus, can you provide the source for that theory?

[FLATROCK HILL]

Not sure how relevant this is, but there is an alternative theory going around that suggests oil is created by abiogenic means deep within the earth and not by the decomposition of organic matter. Some versions of this theory have been discredited or remain unproven, while others remain ambiguous. They suggest, as a corollary, that the earth is continually replenishing its supply of oil (far under the surface.)

It's also a possibility that someday we may get our oil (and plastic mando buttons!) from comets.

Thanks for that. I've read some pretty convincing evidence that suggests that the Earth's oil supply may not be as finite as once believed.

Not too sure I can swallow the 'hydrocarbons without biology' idea though.

Now...back to building a mandolin that doesn't harm any critters.

[foldedpath]

Not sure how relevant this is, but there is an alternative theory going around that suggests oil is created by abiogenic means deep within the earth and not by the decomposition of organic matter. Some versions of this theory have been discredited or remain unproven, while others remain ambiguous. They suggest, as a corollary, that the earth is continually replenishing its supply of oil (far under the surface.)

I dunno... this seems like vegan handwaving to avoid dealing with the very likely biological origin of hydrocarbons. Isn't it enough to just want to avoid the source of materials from contemporary resources, like hide glue and bone nuts?

I mean, if you go back far enough, we're all star stuff.... can't touch anything because we're all made of compounds formed in supernova explosions.

I have great respect for those that take the vegan path. I can't do it myself because I'm lazy, and my S.O. is a carnivore. But when the ethos stretches all the way back to fossil hydrocarbons, I think it's getting to that point where one has to consider where all these compounds came from, in the first place. The argument for vegetarianism is much stronger (IMO) when it's a bit more localized in time and place.

[journeybear]

Now...back to building a mandolin that doesn't harm any critters.

Not meaning to split hairs (animal or human), but I believe you meant "didn't harm any critters." Any mandolin, however or with whatever it may have been built, may still cause harm to animals if improperly played, or if the victimized critter is just too sensitive. Dogs that howl while an instrument is being played may actually be expressing auditory anguish, not "singing along." Just sayin' ...

The argument for vegetarianism is much stronger (IMO) when it's a bit more localized in time and place.

I agree. I've been rereading this thread since it got resurrected, and I've been surprised to see the emphasis on the arguments concerning fossil fuels. It hadn't occurred to me that vegans would object to using them and their by-products, believing their beliefs centered on how animals are treated in the present day-to-day context. It seems to me that if they were completely eschew petroleum-based products, vegans would not be able to participate in modern civilization at all. They could not drive cars, ride bikes, listen to music, watch TV, or communicate via phone or internet. They could, however, build a log cabin, grow vegetables, carve wooden flutes, fashion pottery ocarinas, and watch the stars at night. Perhaps this sort of living in harmony with nature is their goal. Seems extreme and atavistic to me.

[Jim Garber]

To me these questions present ultimate conundrums. One question I hv is what is the origin of a carpenter's glue such as Titebond. I always thought there were some milk products involved. Also, are we talking only of not harming creatures, then using milk products would be OK, right? I mean, a vegan diet is not eating any animal products, but unless we were to actually eat a mandolin that should be not if concern.

Back to the recent inquiry: perhaps the best thing would be to contact a Usa maker who can follow the dictates but for a reasonable price, perhaps Mike at Big Muddy or Sonny Osborne. It really should not be all that difficult as long as we are not talking mandolins already built or right off the boat, so to speak.

[Petrus]

Petrus, can you provide the source for that theory?

The Wikipedia article has a bunch of references linked at the bottom of the page. I can't vouch for them specifically though.

[Petrus]

Thanks for that. I've read some pretty convincing evidence that suggests that the Earth's oil supply may not be as finite as once believed.

Well, even if it is biologically created, it's not necessarily finite because all of us above ground today (including vegetation) will eventually be covered and compressed into oil. But that's going to take a while!

Not too sure I can swallow the 'hydrocarbons without biology' idea though.

A hydrocarbon is just a compound with hydrogen and carbon in it. IIRC, hydrocarbons have been found in space (nebula and interstellar medium), and they certainly exist on some planets and moons, so there is no necessarily requirement that you have biology in order to have hydrocarbons. I think amino acids have also been found in space too but that's a whole 'nother thread.

Titan has more oil than earth does
http://www.space.com/4968-titan-oil-earth.html


Hydrocarbon fuels aren't fossils
http://www.mitosyfraudes.org/Ingles2/FossilFuels.html

[journeybear]

Methane is a very simple compound, CH4, and need not be organic in origin (though it is technically an organic compound).

[foldedpath]

Methane is a very simple compound, CH4, and need not be organic in origin (though it is technically an organic compound).

If we're going to outlaw Methane, then I'm in deep trouble after a few Guinnesses' at the local session. Or more likely, the ride home afterwards...

[journeybear]

No vegan, me. I don't want to say what's for dinner so as not to offend any, though.

I believe Neptune has some methane in its atmosphere, which gives it a blue hue. And Saturn's moon Titan has seas of liquid methane. Mining it would be cost-prohibitive, of course.

[Bill Snyder]

Jim Garber, there is NO milk in Titebond or any other PVA (polyvinyl acetate) glue. Casein glue is made from milk.

[brunello97]

A vegan restaurant just opened in our building, Bill. We're looking forward to trying a few things out, including the 'coconut bacon' their menu promises. A few interesting breakfasts ahead.

I've used some milk based paints back in my old woodworking days. Never could cotton to drinking the stuff, though. Milk, that is.

Mick

[Bertram Henze]

I believe Neptune has some methane in its atmosphere, which gives it a blue hue. And Saturn's moon Titan has seas of liquid methane. Mining it would be cost-prohibitive, of course.

Mining it can be done on earth by eating just enough broccoli. And as for finite oil resources: Scott Adams has predicted that scientists will discover oil in their own hair.

[journeybear]

Really? Fart jokes? Is that the best we can do? This isn't the Banjo Hangout!

BTW, at room temperature and standard pressure, methane is a colorless, odorless gas. Odors are introduced as impurities. It is not commonly produced industrially, as it is still abundant in nature.

[Bertram Henze]

Is that the best we can do?

Not the best we can do, but convertible into banjo jokes, i.e. good for separating all veggie content from it in the process.
Another carbon hydrate that makes for a good joke conversion is ethanol, of course, and it's completely vegan...

[Colin Lindsay]

Mining it would be cost-prohibitive, of course.

Just needs a very long pipe. Very long. If we wait until Titan is high in the sky then, using gravity, the methane will run downhill straight to us… so it’s cost effective too.
Scientists? Who needs ’em?

[Bertram Henze]

If we wait until Titan is high in the sky then, using gravity, the methane will run downhill straight to us…

[Zyzzyzus]

"I dunno... this seems like vegan handwaving to avoid dealing with the very likely biological origin of hydrocarbons."

I don't know any vegan who objects to using oil or oil based products because it formed from zooplankton millions of years ago. The point of veganism (according to the ones I know, and I'm one myself) is to do as little harm as possible. So, yes, in the harvesting of plant crops mice and other small animals were likely killed. But, animals like cows are fed plant crops too, so eating a cow means one is involved in the practice of raising an animal explicitly to be killed and also still 'causing' small animals to be harmed while harvesting the corn and whatnot that cows are fed. So, vegans eat plants and don't eat animals. Anybody who says they've never done anything that causes an animal's death is just being silly though.

And since the plankton that formed oil is looooooong dead, I definitely can't see how a vegan would object to oil on those grounds

I looked at the wikipedia article and I think some of the confusion is that methane (natural gas) and oil (petroleum) are not quite the same thing.

Anyway, I have to say that I've only skimmed the recent posts on this thread but I really appreciate that it hasn't turned into a 'vegans are idiots' rant!

[Bertram Henze]

Anyway, I have to say that I've only skimmed the recent posts on this thread but I really appreciate that it hasn't turned into a 'vegans are idiots' rant!

Such a rant would make any thread a shortlived one, on this forum. Also, we are a strange minority ourselves, playing these little instruments, so we have a built-in civility based on experience. I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm a tea drinker/coffee-hater so who am I to tell others they are off mainstream.

[Jim Garber]

Jim Garber, there is NO milk in Titebond or any other PVA (polyvinyl acetate) glue. Casein glue is made from milk.

Thanks, Bill. I did check the bottle and their website but it is hard to tell where ingredients come from originally. I guess one answer for a budget vegan mandolin may be to remove all bone or she'll products from an import and replace with non-animal-sourced materials.

Maybe the most assured method would be to build from a kit and know exactly what you are putting into it.

[DavidKOS]

Anyway, I have to say that I've only skimmed the recent posts on this thread but I really appreciate that it hasn't turned into a 'vegans are idiots' rant!

Although I do believe that everyone should spend some time as a vegetarian to learn some lessons, strict veganism may not be a great health choice for some people.

http://www.tbyil.com/Recovering_Vegan.htm

Just a thought.....

[FLATROCK HILL]

Anyway, I have to say that I've only skimmed the recent posts on this thread but I really appreciate that it hasn't turned into a 'vegans are idiots' rant!

No one here would go on a 'vegans are idiots' rant. This is a civilized site, and the forum is composed of thoughtful and polite contributors.

It is conceivable though, that a subset of vegans who don't believe that Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass, could become the target of such a rant.

[Bertram Henze]

It is possible though, that a subset of vegans who don't believe that Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass, could become the target of such a rant.

I guess biting off the scroll from your headstock doesn't count as eating vegan.

[brunello97]

Although I do believe that everyone should spend some time as a vegetarian to learn some lessons, strict veganism may not be a great health choice for some people.

http://www.tbyil.com/Recovering_Vegan.htm

Just a thought.....

You're not really serious about this article, are you?

"Eating meat everyday turned out to be incredibly easy......My life is so yummy – I want to share every single bite!" Is there an emoticon for "groan"?

I'm going to stick to listening to my MC colleagues in the once-and-forever 'archtop' vs 'bowlback' debate.

Mick

[DavidKOS]

You're not really serious about this article, are you?

"Eating meat everyday turned out to be incredibly easy......My life is so yummy – I want to share every single bite!" Is there an emoticon for "groan"?

I'm going to stick to listening to my MC colleagues in the once-and-forever 'archtop' vs 'bowlback' debate.

Mick

Not so much the goofy author's personal take, but the issues it brings up. I've been studying diet for decades, and between vegans on one hand and Paleo diet supporters on the other hand (as in "eat meat, your ancestors did and you're genetically the same"), there is some serious contradictory information, and I thought that article a good way to bring up the other side and not start anything disrespectful.

Like I said, everyone should spend some time as a vegetarian - but not everyone can do so forever in our modern stressful world.

Also, once you hear the screams of the plants, it's all over anyway.

And I like bowlbacks.