Is it possible to get an "in tune" mandolin?

[Wupeide]

Hi all!

I am new to this site and new to the mandolin. I've been trying to learn for about a year, more seriously of the past few months. I used to play violin and viola when I was young, played them quite seriously for a few years. So when it comes to intonation, I am very picky.

I have purchased 4 mandolins (one was a gift). The first was a A-style cheap mandolin that I bought online in China (where I am currently living). It looked nice but was not playable, because the intonation was totally off. Next I took a trip to Beijing and bought a classical style mandolin which was kind of playable, but still has intonation problems.

I find that the A string always has the most noticeable problems - going from A to B is always painful, because the B is always sharp - and this kills the G chord, at least for me. (every mandolin that I have played on has had this problem).

Next I had a friend ship a 4 string Epiphone Mandobird - a gift from a friend - it was absolutely, completely unplayable! On the back it a sticker which says 100& inspected and set up in the USA by E - what a disgrace!!!! And people wonder why customers go for overseas products!

Needless to say I was getting very disappointed and figured that my problem was my price range and the fact that I was buy factory made instruments. So I searched for and found a maker in the US and bought a beautiful looking 4-string electric mandolin for $1,350 (for now I will leave his name out of this).

This new mandolin is better than all the previous instruments I have played... However, it still has problems. The strings bind in the nut so that it's impossible to tune (a problem that I am probably going to be able to solve), the G string goes a little flat as you move up the scale and as usual the B on the A string is slightly sharp - though closer this time than it has been on previous instruments.

Today I feel like giving up on the mandolin! Is it not possible to get one with accurate intonation, without spending 10K? Should give up and just start playing guitar instead?

Below are images of the instruments that I bought and tried... I have not included pics of the most recent one since I am hoping to resolve the issues somehow, and I don't want to hurt someone's business... Well that's not exactly true, I would like to hurt Epiphone's business, if possible.
I

[sunburst]

Because they have frets, no mandolins can be played as "in tune" as violin or viola, but they can be pretty good, considering the frets are set up for equal temperament. Any of the mandolins you have had could/can be set up to play pretty well in tune, assuming the frets are accurately placed (a rather big assumption, sometimes). Someone has to set the instrument up, including adjusting the nut and bridge, in order for it to play in tune. Almost any instrument that has been shipped a long distance, including $10000 ones, perhaps, may need to have the set up and intonation adjusted.
If you have a particularly good ear (can hear whether notes are in tune to tolerances much less than 3 cents), and you are used to instruments without frets, you'll probably have to get used to fretted instruments and they're intonation "personalities".

[JeffD]

I have experienced some of those things with my mandolins, and had them set up to solve the problem(s). A good set up is essential.

[Schlegel]

These all sound like simple set-up issues, not quality of construction. A tight nut just needs the slot slightly enlarged, or even just some graphite lube might do the trick. Likely a saddle adjustment (if you have a movable saddle) will fix the G intonation easily. Fret 1 being sharp just means the strings are high at the nut. These are all easy for an experienced person to take care of, and are the kind of thing one always sees on new instruments. I've never bought a new mandolin that didn't need a bit of set-up work.

If you are picky about intonation a factory set-up is never going to be good enough on mandolins. You will have to fine-tune the setup yourself, or use a real luthier with experience of mandolin set-ups, i.e., not just a random guitar guy.

I do my own set-ups, mostly. My Mandobird plays exactly in tune after I made a new nut and adjusted the saddles. Your new mando sounds like it just needs a slight saddle adjustment and a little filing at a slot. Not a big deal.

[Tom Wright]

As a violin/viola player that also played guitar, I also found getting good results from my mandolins an issue at first. One thing is that we fiddlers like the whole step B or F# to produce a sweet 6th interval to the string below. Unfortunately, I think you will always feel this note is slightly harsh, since it must be tempered--you can't easily adjust for playing the B/open E 4th. Another issue for me is that it took time to get comfortable with the ever-so-slightly-narrow tempered 5ths needed. (We usually tune our bowed 5ths perfect.) Your electric bridge has separately adjustable pieces, I presume, so either go to a thicker G or move the G bridge piece closer to the neck so it doesn't play flat up the fingerboard.

That said, it is possible you squeeze too hard, but more likely, I think, is the nut being a little high. It is a safe policy to set it up a little high, (since too low is unplayable, and it will wear over time). This will manifest as the first few frets seeming to play sharp, when open strings and 12th fret tests are in tune. I found my electric very fussy about those first frets, and spent some time making a nut that was suited to my heavy handed style, i.e. as low as possible. Uneven height of pairs can make it hard to get play clean unisons on double-course instruments.

You can go to a shop and spend a session there while the repair guy files the slots and you test them. Or you can buy some slotting files of appropriate size and do it yourself. If you go too far, the nut can be shimmed up with a piece of paper. I think mandolin is much less forgiving of a high nut than guitar, since the angle produced by depressing the string is much steeper with the short distance to the first frets. This means the pitch will change noticeably from fretting deflection. So you need the lowest possible nut height.

[MikeEdgerton]

Mandolin is Italian for "out of tune".

[almeriastrings]

Yes, it is a setup issue, as others have said. Some (most?) cheap mandolins are very, very badly setup when you buy them. They can need quite a lot of work. Even 'serious' expensive instruments are going to need at least some adjustment to get them to play right, and comfortably. The nut is usually the main area that needs work - but the bridge can also be "off". It may not be in exactly the right place, or indeed, it can be badly made and of poor quality (a very common problem on many mandolins). Finally, the frets may not be crowned to perfection... all of these can affect intonation - but they can all be fixed. I suspect your difficulty is going to be finding a setup person who really understands mandolins.. unfortunately, most guitar people don't.

[Wupeide]

Thanks to everybody for the information. It seems to me that the answer to my question is - no, you can't buy a 'new mandolin' and expect to be perfectly in tune. I have to say that is pretty sad, since I am living in China and there is nobody anywhere near me who adjust an instrument.

I don't really understand the temperament issue. If I play a G chord, for example, the B shouldn't noticeably sharp should it?

Thanks again guys!

[greg_tsam]

...I am living in China and there is nobody anywhere near me who adjust an instrument.

You could try learning how to do it yourself. I was amazed at how much info there is floating around. Try searching this forum and www.frets.com

[almeriastrings]

That is what I would do. Practice on as many cheap instruments as possible to start with. Your confidence and skills will improve.

[Fretbear]

We feel your pain, it is a right of passage with this instrument, and anyone that has played one for any length of time will have dealt with this issue. First of all, not every mandolin can be tuned or will stay in tune, set-up or not; some are just junk and always will be. This is one area where they differ from guitars, as while there may be lots of cheap guitars, there are very few guitars that will simply not be able to be tuned up. Mandolins can be extremely unforgiving, and I personally believe that the first, last and most important obstacle to be overcome in playing the instrument is to be able to reliably get it and have it stay in tune, as there is little else one can do without first mastering that. Keep trying and don't give up.

[journeybear]

In a word - no. Might as well give up right now and cut your losses. Or when you are dissatisfied with your new electric, let me know. I'll be happy to take if off your hands at no charge.

But I understand about the MandoBird. I have two of them (thought I could convert one to mandola), and yes, the intonation could be better. I have just about maxed out the set screws on the bridges to get close to in tune. Fortunately, I play a lot of rock and blues and such so I get to bend notes a lot, so there is some leeway for me. But it has been getting more and more unsatisfactory, and my 95 year old Gibson A sounds delightful in comparison to this, despite all the modern technological advances made in the interim. Supposedly. My solution is the same as yours - buying another one handmade by a small builder. I assume the extra investment is going toward (among other things) the time it takes for a knowledgeable craftsman to ensure the production of a fine and fit instrument.

One would like to think standardized measurements for correct fret placement would be available to all manufacturer, and they could be incorporated into even mass-produced instruments. It seems odd that so many MandoBirds could be produced without this key factor being addressed. But a lot of people do complain about this, and even though I have been managing with mine, my audiences at bars and clubs tend to be less discerning than, say, classical ones. Also, there is the "wow" factor associated with hearing an electric mandolin for the first time. I am probably getting away with a bit, as people are unfamiliar with the instrument and don't know what it's supposed to sound like. If they only knew ...

[billkilpatrick]

Mandolin is Italian for "out of tune".

ha!

[Shelagh Moore]

No... due to the temperament issues with frets on what is a very short-scale instrument. But, with a good setup, it is possible to get an almost in-tune instrument (those with a very fine ear will still be able to detect slight intonation anomalies as John Hamlett said above). It also saddens me that some very expensive factory-made instruments (and a few luthier-made ones as well) are set free without due care and attention to a good setup, even bearing in mind people will have individual preferences fore action and string type.

[Pete Summers]

Because they have frets, no mandolins can be played as "in tune" as violin or viola, but they can be pretty good, considering the frets are set up for equal temperament. Any of the mandolins you have had could/can be set up to play pretty well in tune, assuming the frets are accurately placed (a rather big assumption, sometimes). Someone has to set the instrument up, including adjusting the nut and bridge, in order for it to play in tune. Almost any instrument that has been shipped a long distance, including $10000 ones, perhaps, may need to have the set up and intonation adjusted.
If you have a particularly good ear (can hear whether notes are in tune to tolerances much less than 3 cents), and you are used to instruments without frets, you'll probably have to get used to fretted instruments and they're intonation "personalities".

Exactly so. There is no such thing as perfect intonation on any instrument of fixed pitch due to the requirement of the Tempered scale in Western music. That includes mandolins, banjos, guitars, pianos, organs, harmonicas, accordions, etc. - and any other instrument with "keys" or frets.

Unless you go screaming into the night every time you hear a piano, however, you should have no trouble adjusting to the imperfections of mandolin intonation.

That having been said, with mandolins the issue is set-up, set-up, set-up - and for good measure, set-up.

[sunburst]

One would like to think standardized measurements for correct fret placement would be available to all manufacturer, and they could be incorporated into even mass-produced instruments...

One would think that, wouldn't one?
Early in my mandolin building adventures, I bought slotted fretboards from several different suppliers (well known ones), and one day, just out of curiosity, I held two of them side by side to check that the fret slots were all the same. You guessed it, hardly any two were the same. That's when I made my own fret slot cutting jig and I've been using it ever since.
Now there are "numerically controlled" (CNC) machines sitting around everywhere, and yes, every manufacturer could have accurately cut fingerboards, but some of them my have old stock 'boards, some may have their own (caveman era) systems, some may be buying from suppliers who haven't upgraded to contemporary standards... Things can be slow to change in manufacturing, and when changes don't directly affect the bottom line, well, there's just not much incentive up there in the top office.
Be that as it may, frets are a compromise anyway. Even when correctly placed mathematically, the best we can hope for is equal temperament and that means some notes are "wrong". Add to that different string sets, string age and condition, differences in action height, and just the variation in how strings behave at different lengths and there are enough errors at play that they will negate some surprisingly large fret placement errors.
Mt best efforts over three sessions with a customer's guitar, a customer who plays in a duo with his violin playing wife (both Berkley grads with excellent ears), in DADGAD tuning, on a very well built guitar, was every string within 3 cents at each fret. That was as close as it was going to get because "correcting" any note from there was going to make another note worse. I did similar things to two of his other guitars and they couldn't be gotten that close.
It's a fact; we can't get fretted instruments in tune, but close is good enough.

[Wupeide]

Once again - thanks to everyone. I played for about half an hour tonight and the strings stayed in tune - so I guess I have just about sorted the nut binding issue. (it used to go out of tune in about 30 seconds) I also filed the nut slightly under the A and that seems to have helped, possibly. I think I may be able to live with it as it is now... I will try to play it for a few more weeks... and see if I can get used to it. To be sure, it's close to in tune.

[Jim Ferguson]

Two words: "SET UP"....:-)
There is no way you are going to purchase a new or used mando & have it shipped to you & have it be in tune. Simply not going to happen. The only way you are going to buy a new or used mando in tune is if you buy one directly at the music store where it has been set up before being placed out on the floor.
I am willing to bet that your mando issues all stem from a lack of or poor set up. A good set up can make even the least expensive (I hate the word cheap) mando playable & sound somewhat decent.
Have your mando set up & you'll be the happier for it.
Peace,

[allenhopkins]

...Next I had a friend ship a 4 string Epiphone Mandobird - a gift from a friend - it was absolutely, completely unplayable! On the back it a sticker which says 100& inspected and set up in the USA by E - what a disgrace!!!! And people wonder why customers go for overseas products!...

Regardless of what the sticker said, Mandobirds are Chinese-made. One could speculate how intensive and lengthy the "inspection and set-up" provided was, once the instrument came off the boat from Asia -- only to be sent back there to you!

There are a variety of "tweaks" that can address intonation problems: bridge height, nut height, bridge location, bridge saddle compensation, adjustment of string gauges, fret height, and so forth. You might be surprised at the accessibility of experienced instrument-tech skills in China, which produces millions of fretted instruments annually. True, most destined for export, but I'd wager enough get sold "in country" to justify instrument repair and set-up shops there.

And, as pointed out above, any fret layout pattern involves some compromise, unless you're building a strictly diatonic instrument. Situation's exacerbated by the mandolin's short scale. I'd predict you will get somewhat "used to it," but you'll never get the intonation exactitude you can achieve with a fretless instrument.

On the other hand, it won't sound as bad as a badly-fingered violin, so there's a silver lining...

[Ben Milne]

Regardless of what the sticker said, Mandobirds are Chinese-made. .

Quite a few are from Indonesia.

But yeh.

[journeybear]

From my small sample set - one was made in China, the other Indonesia. The one I use for gigs is the Indonesian one - no real reason, just the first one I got, and as it's the one with the string holes through the body slightly out of line with the bridge plate, not the better one. But they were both 100% inspected and set-up in the USA, both by #7 - who has some 'splainin' to do, regarding the aforementioned.

But yeah ...

[allenhopkins]

Hypotheses:

1. "Inspector #7" does nothing but take Mandobirds out of shipping boxes, attach "Inspected and set-up in the USA" stickers to them, and put them in other shipping boxes.

2. "Inspector #7" may in fact be a robot.

3. "Inspector #7" may be a robot located in Jakarta or Shanghai, and the Mandobirds sold in Asia, never leave Asia.

4. All inspectors -- assuming there are more than one -- are "#7", just as all the customer service reps in Bangalore are named "Bob."

[Jake Wildwood]

Hypotheses:

1. "Inspector #7" does nothing but take Mandobirds out of shipping boxes, attach "Inspected and set-up in the USA" stickers to them, and put them in other shipping boxes.

2. "Inspector #7" may in fact be a robot.

3. "Inspector #7" may be a robot located in Jakarta or Shanghai, and the Mandobirds sold in Asia, never leave Asia.

4. All inspectors -- assuming there are more than one -- are "#7", just as all the customer service reps in Bangalore are named "Bob."

Very true.

Also true: 95% of all setup problems with Asian-made instruments could be solved very quickly with a replacement of the standard nut with a nut + zero-fret that matches the height of all the other frets, rather than the usual whopper makers pop in there. Then we wouldn't have zillions of guitars, ukes, mandos, etc. flooding the market causing folks to wince when they try to play ANYTHING.

[Fretbear]

95% of all setup problems with Asian-made instruments could be solved very quickly with a replacement of the standard nut with a nut + zero-fret that matches the height of all the other frets, rather than the usual whopper makers pop in there.

The first thing people can do if they start hearing something strange going on with a new instrument (a guitar or mandolin) is to try a capo at the first fret. If it suddenly starts to play perfectly everywhere, it is because you have taken the offending nut out of the equation. I have spend days (very slowly!) working a new guitar nut to be exactly where I want it, just so that it will play in open position (almost) the way it already plays capoed at any other fret, which is a test for how a properly set-up nut should sound and feel. With the mandolin, which is generally played without a capo (let's not go there!) it is even more critical.

[Rob Meldrum]

Short answer. Email me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com for a free ebook on how to set up a mandolin. in two hours you'll have a vastly improved instrument. All of the issues you mentioned are common to factory - shipped instruments. Rob