Is it possible to get an "in tune" mandolin?

[LM_in_KY]

This thread just answered something that has been tugging at me for a few days. I CANNOT get my cheepie in tune. The only thing I had going for me was a somewhat good ear for tuning, but now that has proven to be sort of a curse. The first fret on my cheep-o-lin is all but unplayable, and when you get furhter up, it's almost as if the notes are almost a half step off ----oO0F Ive lowered the bridge, but it really needs a thicker gauge first fret and the bridge reglued further back.
As a rank, lowest rung, n00b, I dont feel Ive "earned" the right to a nice mando yet. So, I guess after reading all of this stuff, I am just going to tolerate/embrace the out-of-tunity and know better days are ahead when the 'real' one comes along.

My mando was a very thoughtful gift from my Wife after I talked about it for months, so I will feel better about stubbing my fingers on it for a while, anyway.

[Tavy]

LM: this sounds to me like the nut is too high, and the bridge in the wrong place.

Note that the bridges are not glued on - they're "floating" - so just slacken off the D and A strings and then you should be able to move the bridge to where it needs to be. I suggest you wander over to frets.com as you should be able to find the info you need to fix this up properly there.

[LM_in_KY]

LM: this sounds to me like the nut is too high, and the bridge in the wrong place.

Note that the bridges are not glued on - they're "floating" - so just slacken off the D and A strings and then you should be able to move the bridge to where it needs to be. I suggest you wander over to frets.com as you should be able to find the info you need to fix this up properly there.

Thank you Tavy . . . I loosened the strings and had to move the bridge a full 10mm back to get it intone (almost) correctly. There were small dimples in the top Im not too happy about, but it with the lowering of the strings, it sounds like a new instrument ! This just adds an exclamation point to the "GET A PROPER SET-UP" advice the seasoned players give here, over and over . . . Thanks again.

[Toni Schula]

The following theory aplies to any instrument, not only mandolins and especially banjos.

According to Heisenberg:
T = h * 1/t

With T being the quailty of being in tune and t being the noticeable timespan of a note. And h of course is the Heisenberg constant which you better google.

In other words, the instrument either is perfectly in tune OR you can hear it produce a sound ;-)

[hvalrgir]

The following theory aplies to any instrument, not only mandolins and especially banjos.

According to Heisenberg:
T = h * 1/t

With T being the quailty of being in tune and t being the noticeable timespan of a note. And h of course is the Heisenberg constant which you better google.

In other words, the instrument either is perfectly in tune OR you can hear it produce a sound ;-)

It's only in tune when you dont play a note (as t=>0, T=>∞).

[Tavy]

It's only in tune when you dont play a note (as t=>0, T=>∞).

You can have volume or pitch, but never both at the same time (Pauli exclusion principle).

[JeffD]

[mandroid]

Like Schrödinger's cat, If you leave it in the box, it can be both at the same time only in probability theory.

FWIW, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat

[Tavy]

Like Schrödinger's cat, If you leave it in the box, it can be both at the same time only in probability theory.

Schrödinger's mandolin is both an A and an F style at once, just don't look at it or it'll collapse...

[Wupeide]

This tread took on a life of its own after I left it. Funny.

Suffice it to say, I have not achieved intonation yet, but I am getting closer every day.

I think a good set up is really the key, as many have mentioned. The tolerances for error with such a small instrument are miniscule.


Then again, there are some interesting solutions out there that I haven't yet seen on the forum here. Jon Mann send me this link the other day:

http://www.earvana.com/

Interesting indeed.

[mandroid]

I'm not particular about C on my A string sounding exactly like C on the piano. I don't play with a piano, or with a band, just by myself in my living room. But I sure would like C on both A strings to sound the same as each other. When they are not tuned alike it just makes my skin crawl.

Might have to work on that reflex, instead, its a prompt to tune the out of unison string properly,
as soon as you notice it..
one of the things about a short scale stringed instrument, is it only needs to be off a little bit to be noticed,
because even a half scale step note, space between frets, is not that far.


You may need to write some amusing stage patter to fill the time on stage,
that you will be retuning , in live sets, (write tuning jokes, they may or may not include
sub-atomic partical physics, theory , depending on your audience)
its part of being an Entertaining musician.

[jumppin james]

I wonder if fanned frets are possible for such a short scale length. And, how about the Buzz Feiten Tuning System? (It's way different from the tuning I have on my Mando-Bird IV--the Feiten Buzz Tuning.)

[Pete Summers]

This tread took on a life of its own after I left it. Funny.

Suffice it to say, I have not achieved intonation yet, but I am getting closer every day.

I think a good set up is really the key, as many have mentioned. The tolerances for error with such a small instrument are miniscule.


Then again, there are some interesting solutions out there that I haven't yet seen on the forum here. Jon Mann send me this link the other day:

http://www.earvana.com/

Interesting indeed.

For what it's worth, here is my understanding of the elements of mandolin setup:

The first thing to be determined in setting up a factory mandolin is the length of the scale. On a typical modern A or F style mandolin the scale is 13-7/8 inches. That means the speaking length of the strings should be divided in half at the 12th fret. That fret should produce an perfect octave to the open string. So the length of the speaking length of the strings from the nut to the 12th fret should be EXACTLY the same distance as it is from the 12 fret to the bridge. A good ruler will help find the proper bridge position.

This string length can be tweaked somewhat by compensated bridges, but the fundamental rule is: nut to 12th fret equals 12th fret to bridge. Just placing the bridge in this position to start will seriously improve intonation.

Once the bridge is in the right spot, the nut height can be tested according to the tests given at http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...nutaction.html (using the example of the guitar in that link, but applicable to mandolin also). If the nut has the strings too high above the first fret, it will stretch the string when played, particularly on the first few frets, causing the notes to sound sharp, not to mention hard to play. So adjusting the nut is next in line.

With the nut and bridge position corrected, the height of the bridge to produce proper fret clearance at the 12th fret is the next step. Assuming a straight neck and level frets (a big assumption in some cases) the clearance of the string above the 12th fret should be about two millimeters, more or less depending on string gauge and preference. Once the instrument has been setup in this manner even the lowly laminated Rogues and Savannahs will sound surprising good.

All of this can be learned and Rob's ebook and Frets.com are good places to start. The peculiar flaws of the Tempered Scale are always present in any instrument of fixed pitch, however, there's not much that can be done about that.

[Jim Garber]

Maybe you need a mandolin with frets like this Sanden guitar (currently at Mandolin Brothers).

[Tom Cherubini]

About nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge distances, some instruments will actually sound the string when fretted above the 12th fret and plucked below the 12th fret. Not a very good tone but often good enough for a tuner to pick up. To position the bridge precisely, fret the E string in the regular way and watch the tuner, Then fret ABOVE the 12th fret and pluck the string over the fret board.
The two notes of course, should be exactly the same pitch. If not, move the bridge until they are. Do the same procedure for the G string. Being able to sound the note over the fret board depends on the height of the strings above the frets, a higher action making it easier. Not every mandolin will voice a note. You may just get a 'plunk' which a tuner won't pick up, in which case the measuring method has to be used, but it's not quite as accurate.
I think it's a bit easier on archtop guitars.

Thomas

[stevedenver]

to be brief
set up and bridge poistion is critical as mentioned

i had a '35 A-50 (with raised fingerboard extention in triburst, red line geib, pretty rare -stolen from me some fifteen years back and likely still in Yuma, Colorado with an ex-nannys trash rock and roll boyfriend/thief) , and like many older gibbys, not all that easy to play, and old tuners too

and now have a 02 fern
started on both with phosphor bronze strings-but thomastiks made both play better and stay in tune

the epiphany for me regarding stability and ease of playing (and i often play above the fifteenth fret, in tune!

are the very pricey thomastik strings -simply, once these strings settle, they stay tuned-for me often needing NO tuning after three hours of playing with my band, hard

i prefer the sound of bronze strings by far, but use thomastiks exclusively now becuase of the tuning stability and softness and slickness, which allow me to play my fern like a fretless wonder-and in tune!

i cannot overstate the difference these make for me in terms of staying in tune-

the tradeoff is not being able to bury the banjo player volume-wise, un-mic'd

[Tavy]

This string length can be tweaked somewhat by compensated bridges, but the fundamental rule is: nut to 12th fret equals 12th fret to bridge. Just placing the bridge in this position to start will seriously improve intonation.

Yes the bridge need to be in the right place, but I couldn't disagree more that the 12th fret should bisect the strings - that would only ever be true if the strings were infinitely flexible. In practice there's a section of string at either end which doesn't really participate in string vibration so the effective vibrating length is always shorter than what you measure. Added to which we bend the string slightly sharp when we fret it. These are the reasons why we compensate bridges, and why they should always be slightly closer to the tailpiece than measuring would indicate is correct. I confess I've never measured how much this is on a mandolin 'cos there's no need - just adjust bridge position until everything is in tune - but on guitars the amount of compensation is typically 2mm on the high e and 5-6mm on the low e. I would imagine mandolins to be similar.

BTW don't get too strung up on getting the 12th fret in tune - check it everywhere and move the bridge until you get the best compromise over the whole fretboard. At the end of the day all the theory, trick and tips are irrelevant - the bridge is moveable, so trial and error small movements until you reach the best compromise position is as good a method as any!

[Paul Statman]

On one of my mandos I can get everything set up electronically and in tune, but for the A course, which frets sharp up to the sixth fret.
The nut slots couldn't be cut any lower, so I'm starting to think that either the saddle is not compensated correctly, or Buzz Feiten needs to make an entrance..

[Tom Wright]

...The nut slots couldn't be cut any lower, so I'm starting to think that either the saddle is not compensated correctly, or Buzz Feiten needs to make an entrance...

Until you have indeed cut the slots too low, e.g. the string bottoming out on the first fret, the slots may still be too high. I thought I had my Buchanan dialed in, but checked more carefully and found I needed to match my pairs better. That of course meant going a little lower on the high string of a pair, and the result was that what I thought to be a tempering challenge was just the D, A, and E strings being a tiny bit high at the nut. I mean a tiny bit, as in three or four strokes total with the file. Now it is no effort to tune up perfectly, excellent intonation at 5th fret as well as 12th from my fixed bridge. And making the pairs more accurately matched meant my unisons were spot-on instead of unreliable.

If the A plays sharp in the low frets it is too high at the nut. The bridge location is least noticed in the low frets; the reverse is true for nut height. The string should deflect downward when fingered at the first fret by no more than it does when going from fret 1 to 2, which is to say almost unnoticeably. The difference between high enough and too high (or too low) is really small.

[Paul Statman]

The string should deflect downward when fingered at the first fret by no more than it does when going from fret 1 to 2, which is to say almost unnoticeably. The difference between high enough and too high (or too low) is really small.

Thanks, Tom. I knew this, and to that end, had already fine tuned (filed) the nut slots with a feeler gauge.

[Steve Ostrander]

An in-tune mandolin exists, like some radioactive isotopes, for a nanosecond, then dissapear into the ether, never to be seen nor heard from again....

[aneumann01]

Everyone here is more seasoned than I am but I can't help but throw in my two cents. You mentioned "unplayable." I'm guessing the action is too high. High action can kill your intonation. Maybe the bridge is set too high? I had one with a bridge set high. The action and intonation was ridiculous. I took the screws off the bridge and dropped the saddle all the way down on the bridge and it was such a big difference. Playability and intonation improved greatly. I find the mandolin to be an interesting creature. I make it a point to learn everything I can about them but that's kind of hard since no two are the same. If you don't feel comfortable trouble shooting issues, take it to a professional for a set ups and he'll do it for you.

[Paul Statman]

The break point in the slots at the nut and saddle must be correct.

[Dragonfly Dreamer]

Well....now I am totally terrorized at the advanced age of 65, happily collecting my social security and deciding I needed to tend to my "bucket List"...I had the wild thought that as I had always wanted to learn an instrument and never did...and that instrumental music has always made my heart sing....I decided to learn to read music AND play the violin at the same time....
18 months later....I have realized I will not live long enough to become a proud "fiddler"...so...the mandolin, such a lovely romantic instrument, seemed a viable alternative as it has the same string chords and tunes in a similar fashion...after due diligence, and some reading and wandering about on Ebay and Amazon, I have a used a style Appalachian (Amazon cheapie touted to have a solid maple top) in the mail on its way to me, have bought D'Addario FW74's to replace the existing strings, learn to play book and CD by Mel Bay, been studying the tabs charts....oh my......and now having found the Mandolin Cafe and reading the applicable forums....oh my.....it would seem I have lept from the skillet into the fire! But I must say...everyone is so knowledgeable and helpful, I look forward to the coming adventure!! And I will be looking for someone to do the set up!

[Paul Statman]

Welcome to the 'cafe, Dragonfly Dreamer! A whole world of things mandolin awaits you here. Happy picking..