Dating the Lyon & Healy

[twaaang]

My L&H Style B SN 879 has a 1918 patent notice stamped on the pickguard. I recently corresponded with someone whose symmetrical Style A SN four-ninety-something (I know some people are leery about publishing these) had a pickguard stamped "PAT APL'D FOR" with no date.

Now I know the manufacturing records are all lost, so exact dating is impossible, but I wonder how high the serial numbers go on the "patent-applied-for" examples, or how low the numbers go with the "1918" stamp. Does anyone want to help narrow this down?

Probably I'm committing several invalid assumptions in posing this question, which I'll appreciate having pointed out to me (honest!). I confess to having a slight fixation on wanting my L&H to be from the 'teens (especially 1918, when the flu epidemic ravaged my grandfather's health and forced him to move to the Adirondacks), but if it's from the Harding administration instead I can still love it.

So: any serial numbers/pickguards to compare? Flu stories? Anyone ever been to Big Moose? -- PDW

[Eugene]

The guy who has compiled the most serial numbers of whom I'm aware is Hubert P. in the Netherlands. #He is a member here, but an infrequent poster and his username is not incdicative of his real name. #I've had some past correspondence with him, but I've lost his contact info (as well as the spelling of his last name) via computer mishaps and changes. #(If somebody else has it, I'd be happy to receive it again.) #Another knowledgeable L&H expert is Neil Russell. #He wrote a very useful article on rough dating L&H's Washburn brand bowlbacks for Mandolin Magazine (2002. vol. 3, no. 4). #His site is Celtic Cross Instruments.

Of course, L&H went from a ca. 14" to a ca. 13" scale around 1920. #That should narrow it down a little. #There is a very fine long-scale symmetric style A (i.e., pre-1920) in the newly founded Dayton Mandolin Orchestra. #The owner told me the serial number; I believe I recall it was in the 30s (!), perhaps serial no. 39. #I don't own an archtop L&H, but I really have to get around to it one of these days.

[Nat]

Well, if it helps at all, I've got a style A symmetrical, which is serial #681. It has "Pat.11-12-18" on the pickguard.

I was told by Elderly that it was from 1918.

I love the thing. I really do.

[s1m0n]

It has "Pat.11-12-18" on the pickguard.

I was told by Elderly that it was from 1918.

If the patent wasn't granted until mid-november of 1918, how likely is it that the tailpiece would have been stamped (using a die) in time to go on a mandolin by the end of the year?

How do patent grant dates work--do you get advance notice of the day it's going to be granted? Or is the date the day you file your application?

[Bob DeVellis]

For the curious:

[Jim Garber]

My L&H Style B SN 879 has a 1918 patent notice stamped on the pickguard. #I recently corresponded with someone whose symmetrical Style A SN four-ninety-something (I know some people are leery about publishing these) had a pickguard stamped "PAT APL'D FOR" with no date.

Maybe it was me who wrote to you (sounds like close to my SN). In any case mine is symmetrical A style (long scale) with "PAT APL'D FOR" stamped on both the pickguard and the tailpiece base.

Jim

[keef]

Hi - Hubert here. This is very confusing stuff...I have collected a lot of L&H serial number information in the past years but mostly regarding Washburns. I find it very difficult to draw definite conclusions from the limited serial number data on the L&H/Washburn Style A-C mandos that I have listed to date (about 80 in total). Because of a number of inconsistencies it is not even clear if these instruments were numbered separately (A / B / C) or not. The latter ('not') must be the case though, because otherwise the production totals of these -expensive- instruments would be way too high in comparison to the other cheaper flatback and bowlback Washburns made at the time.

Here is some data: the lowest number I have with the 11.12.1918 pat designation is #524 (for Style C mandos), 681 (A), and 879 (B -did you get that one from Mandolin Bros Paul?). It would seem that this stamp did not appear until late 1918 / early 1919. Not all post 1919 pickguards have the stamp, but it can be found at least through the late 1920s. The patented pickguard shape (it's a design patent, not a technical patent) was used for the Style A and B guards. Nonetheless, the differently shaped Style C pickguards also got the patent stamp.

Transition to short scale neck (and asymmetrical body shape for Style A, deco instead of 'stairstep' headstock for Styles B and C): lowest is #1086 (A, #762 has a longer scale neck), 1206 (C, #1175 is long scale) and 1281 (B - #989 is long scale).

'Washburn' on label: #1393 (B), 1644 ©, 1814 (A).

This all would require a lot more researching, but I think that the changes to the short scale neck and the Washburn labels were not implemented simultaneously for all three styles. L&H were also notorious for using up remaining old stock parts after the introduction of new models, which may distort the picture somewhat.

[Nat]

I'm pretty sure that I once saw a long-scale asymmetrical style A. But has anyone ever seen a short-scale symmetrical A?

It's questions like these that keep me up at night.

It has also always interested me that my symmetrical A came with an original rectangular case that was obviously built to be able to accomodate the asymmetrical model as well. I've always wondered if somebody just swapped cases on me decades ago, or if they geared up the new cases before they introduced the new models.

Anybody got a symmetrical A with a rectangular case that obviously couldn't fit a later l&h?

Also, has anybody got any pictures of one of those cool style A's with the extra-long fingerboard extension over the soundhole, like the one Apollon had?

[keef]

Here is one...26 frets cause one is missing

[Jim Garber]

Hubert:
Was that a custom L&H with longer scale and extended fingerboard?

Jim

[PlayerOf8]

Jim,
I have seen several of these with the fingerboard extended. I owned #519, a sytle B and it had an extended board.

g

[PlayerOf8]

Jim,
I have seen several long scale necks with the fingerboard extended. I owned #519, a sytle B and it had an extended board. There is a long scale Model C here in the neighborhood that has an extended fingerboard.

g

[keef]

The 27-fret fingerboard could be ordered as an option for some time...the posted picture of #1782 is a short scale Style A.

[Bob A]

We have on hand a long-scale B with L&H label, s/n 39, pat applied for on the guard, and a short-scale asymmetric A with Washburn label, s/n 2349. Neither example has the extended board, nor do they have the little erectile peg. Not sure of difference between stair and deco pegheads, or I'd have noted the style for the model B.

It would be interesting to find out if Eugene's friend's A style really had s/n 39 also; this would indicate that each style had a separate serial number range.

[keef]

Bob - the closest Style A I have listed is #37. That one - and #39 B - were sold previously by John Bernunzio.
It seems that the pullout knee rest was not featured on the first batches in 1917 (and later, some people may have ordered instruments without them). The knee rest was discontinued (I believe) during the early 1920s, which is why both your mandolins do not have them.
Usually with L&H there are always exceptions, like a late 1920s A mandola (Style 5300) with a knee rest.

[Eugene]

It would be interesting to find out if Eugene's friend's A style really had s/n 39 also; this would indicate that each style had a separate serial number range.

I'll see if I can find out.

[Bob A]

The style B (sn 39) was bought from Bernunzio. I believe it was formerly owned by Peter Mix.

For the record, it has a nasty cigarette burn on the top; this didn't deter eithe Peter or myself from buying it anyway. As with my other L&H, the sound of the instrument made purchase an imperative.

My guess is that the B is a pretty early example of the breed, while my A might be fairly near the end of production. A shame that there were so few made; still, they seem to be readily available, and not desperately out of reach at 1500-3500. Some might think they're a bargain at the price: getting one duplicated today is considerably more painful than buying used.

[Mace]

I have a pat. applied for, no knee pull out what I believe to be a stair-step, style B number 5 special. Can you provide additional data on it?

[Jim Garber]

All right... deco or stairstep? (on style B) I need clarification...

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Is this the Deco (on style C)?

Jim

[keef]

The first picture is the shape known as the stairstep headstock, the second the 'deco'. Styles B and C originally had the stairstep, and both changed a few years later to the deco shape (around the 1200 serial number range).

Mace - is your B really #5? I have a mandocello #5 on my list. And what do you mean by 'special'? It seems likely that your mandolin dates from 1917, when these were first introduced.

Bob - #2349 A dates around 1924-5 if the label says 'Style A'. In 1925 it was renamed Style 5283. I have not seen A's numbered higher than the 2300s.
The 5283 was catalogued until 1940. These later (post 1930) Regal/Tonk Bros era A mandolins are VERY rare.

[Mace]

It reads: (typed) No, (by hand) 5 Spec, (typed) Style, (by hand) B. I'd post pictures; but the process is new to me. Overall in great shape, does have a crazing irregular line running down the face of the veneer on the headstock in the middle. It does not appear on the other side.

[Jim Garber]

Thanks, Hubert for clearing that headstock info up.

One other question: what is the differrence between an A Professional and a plain A?

Thanks
Jim

[keef]

According to the Teagle book, 'Professional' indicates the 27-fret version (instead of the standard 24-fret extension fingerboard). I am not sure about that. Mandolin Bros listed two A's as 'Professional' (which name should in that case be hand written on the label) but these had 24 frets.

At the Washburn HQ in Mundelein, IL I inspected #707, with 'Professional' written on the label, but forgot to count the frets...duh! They used that as a wall hanger in the reception area under bright and warm lights. When I took it down I heard a clunking sound inside - one of the braces had completely come loose...

[Bob A]

For the record, my style A does read style A. Also, the style B peghead is the "stairstep".