Best (and affordable) Acoustic/Electric

[Mandodrumkeywind Player]

Hello there, all you mandolin virtuosos! I'm really glad to be here, joining your community and reading your posts!

Just as a little introduction of myself, I'm a band director of 20 years, play piano, bass, most all wind instruments on a high school level, and my main instrument is percussion. But I just picked up mando about 2 months ago and I love it!

Sooo, I'm coming here to get some advice from you....THE PROS! I've been playing my mando at church now for about a month and a half (mostly lead stuff and countermelody stuff), but now I'm getting better on it and playing on a few more tunes. The problem is, with the band going 90-to-nothing, I'm putting a mic to my mando strings and playing really hard on it. I think it's almost time for an electric mando, and I only like the sound (so far as I've heard) of the Epiphone MM-50E. All the others sound like a guitar to me, not close enough to the acoustic sound for me. However, as I read on the forum here, a lot of the real mando players on here don't seem to favor the MM-50E.

What other acoustic/electric models should I be looking at? The Epiphone also has a nice price but if I'm going to invest, I might as well do it right!

Thanks ahead of time for your answer, and again, I'm VERY glad to be here, nice to meet you all!

[Eddie Sheehy]

These are ones I've used

Hollowbody:
Fender FM 62SCE
Ovation MM68


Solidbody:
Jerman custom
Mandobird

an assortment of acoustic mandolins with K&K pickups...

[michaelpthompson]

Welcome to the club! You've raised a subject upon which there are many opinions. Many players, especially bluegrass or old-time, say that only a microphone can really pick up the sound of a mandolin properly. They're essentially looking for the closest thing to the natural acoustic sound. If you play rock or other music in a loud environment, then a solid body electric can be a better answer. Not as "natural" sounding, but much less prone to feedback and more compatible with other loud electric instruments.

For the middle of the road, many of us do play the acoustic/electrics. The most popular are the Godin A-8 and the Ovation MM-68. I play a lesser model Ovation and I'm very happy with it, it holds its own in acoustic sessions and sounds great plugged in. My opinion anyway.

BTW, when you're looking at the Ovations, remember they've added a new, Korean-made model to the line and called it the MM-68 AX. It seems to be comparable in quality to the MCS-148 and is similar in price; like $5-800 new. The original MM-68 is no longer made, but was crafted in Hartford Connecticut and by all accounts is a superior instrument. You can often find one in good shape on eBay for $1200-2000.

Another option, as Eddie mentioned, is putting a pickup in your acoustic. I agree with him totally about the K&K for this. I had one installed in my octave mandolin and I love it. Great sound, easy to use, it's passive so I don't have to worry about batteries, but it puts out nearly the volume of a preamp.I went with the guitar version (three pickups, rather than two) to get more bass response, as I've heard some people say the twin is a bit on the tinny side.

[Tim2723]

Hi and welcome!

It's true that only a small minority here favor the Epiphone line, but it's important to remember that this community is made up of those who often use the mandolin as their primary instrument, so they can have very different requirements from those who might only use them from time to time. Another important condition is that you're playing in church. Churches are, by their nature, very specialized places to play. You can have a surprisingly large 'audience' who are all sitting quietly and listening. That doesn't happen at festivals, dance halls, and barrooms. A third thing is that the population of this forum is dominated by Bluegrass and Old Time players who, in turn, have even more specialized expectations for their instruments.

If the Epiphone pleases your ear and if it's not your primary instrument, I think you'd be fine with it. A lot depends on the church in question. If your church is "The Little Brown Church in the Dale" serving about 100 people, you man need nothing more than to get better performance from your existing set up, although the Epiphone would do well. For medium sized churches of 500 or so adding a pickup to an acoustic model (perhaps the one you have) is likely to do a superb job. The Epiphone Would also be a good fit for those requirements. For very large Houses of Worship seating 1000 or more (the sanctified auditoriums) then a more specialized form of acoustic-electric is probably in order since you'll be playing at very loud volumes and the unique ability of certain AE mandolin designs to resist feedback becomes very important.

Should that be the case, I too will recommend the Ovation instruments or a Godin A-8. Both are the current popular choices for production line, readily available instruments. The advantage of those two designs is that they can play at a huge variety of volumes without difficulty while retaining much of the sound of a true acoustic.

[mandroid]

The magnetic pickup at the end of the fingerboard, Vs a piezoelectric one on the soundboard.
are the 2 broad categories .
the magnetic pickup signal is stronger .. same pickup type as a lot of E Guitars.
the Piezoelectric ones benefit from a Pre amp in the signal chain before the amplifier.

[Charlieshafer]

This is slumming a bit compare to the Ovations and Godins, but I also have an old Ibanez with a factory pickup (wish I could give you the model, but it's loaned out right now) that doesn't sound bad (that's a relative statement if there ever was one). I also have an old Harmony which looks really cool, but the pick-up is ver weak and the tuners move all over the place, and at different levels of difficulty in tuning, so that's not a great one. But if on a budget, some of the older ones Ibanez really aren't that bad, but I'm sure the condition they're in now is pretty variable.

This Tacoma looks interesting, but I've not played one.

On ebay now, there seem to be a bunch of Ovations for under $500, a Godin or two for under $800, and a few other assorted things that are a little higher, like an old Gibson which has great mojo.

If you go a little higher, Eastman has just come out with a new acoustic/electric which looks very promising. That's one I want to try myself.

[Tim2723]

Watch out for some of those 'under $500' Ovations. They may not be the model they claim to be. Shop carefully.

[Mandodrumkeywind Player]

Haha Manroid, I love that "Mandolin ######" icon you have!

Well guys, I went to Guitar Center today, and they had a couple of mandolins there. I tried the Michael Kelly and it was ok. BUT......I tried the Washburn and oh baby, I fell in love! This thing felt wonderful in my hands, the action felt sooo good, and it resonated like cray! I'm in love!

I think what I need to do is get the Washburn, then install the new Shadow Electronics product....?

Thanks for the replies and the hearty welcome!

Mandolindrumskeyboardwind Player

[Tim2723]

Good on you! I'm a veteran Kelly user, but I really like Washburn products better too. Why do you want to replace the electronics? What more are you after that we could help you with? For instance, it might not be the on-board electronics, but what you're playing it through, or even an add-on that's needed. Ask away, and welcome again!

[Mandodrumkeywind Player]

I got on this kick after banging the hell out of my Savannah at church while the full band is rocking. The microphone thing is kinda getting old, and I can't tell what the balance is just by listening to the monitors so I don't really know how I'm projecting. I have to bang it so loud that it's playing outta tune (worse than it already plays outta tune, as you can imagine since it's a Savannah, ugh). So I saw a review video on youtube on the Epiphone MM 50-E, and the aparatus it comes with (a Shadow Electronics device) is the BEST I've heard so far at reproducing a REAL acoustic mandolin sound. The rest of them sound to me like little guitars, not mandolins.

But after reading the reviews on the Epiphone, and the listening to the advice of you guys, I'm scared away from the Epiphone. But that Washburn has captured my heart! So I figure the Washburn plus the Shadow device would equal what I need?

[Ben Milne]

The epi would be fine for what you need. Good price too, considering what you'll pay for the shadow pickup alone.

[Tim2723]

Well, if your experience is mostly coming from YouTube, you need to know that a lot of those videos are outright atrocious. Some of them shouldn't even be there even though they're well meaning. There' one Ovation video that consistently does more harm than good. It's not necessarily anyone's fault, but YouTube uses some funky compression that doesn't showcase instruments all that well sometimes.

If your heart is set on getting the Washburn and adding the Epiphone's Shadow system, then go for it, but you'll probably end up spending about as much money as the others in the end. The Ovations, and particularly the Godin, are very widely recognized as some of the most accurate acoustic reproductions out there. Even the super hard-core acoustic/mic devotees will give a passing nod to the Godin. They don't have the traditional look and all the mojo that goes with the F-5 design, but the sound is much better than YouTube will lead you to believe.

I hope you'll consider the option to give the Savannah a fair shake as well. For a lot of church musicians, adding a quality pickup to a favorite acoustic model is all they really need. And a lot cheaper too.

[UkuleleAl]

Hello there, all you mandolin virtuosos! I'm really glad to be here, joining your community and reading your posts!

Just as a little introduction of myself, I'm a band director of 20 years, play piano, bass, most all wind instruments on a high school level, and my main instrument is percussion. But I just picked up mando about 2 months ago and I love it!

Sooo, I'm coming here to get some advice from you....THE PROS!

Haha Not all of us are pros

[Mandodrumkeywind Player]

Well then I will certainly give the Ovation and the Godin a try on your recommendation before I do anything. The problem with my Savannah is that it will not play in tune. I don't think it's been properly set up, but no matter how perfectly I tune it open, many of the chords and frets do not play in tune. The action is aweful as well, the strings sit so high.

[Tim2723]

Well, it's up to you of course. The best we can do is share our experiences and information for what it's worth. With every post you make a little more information comes out, and now I'm thinking that your opinion of the Savannah, including its volume into the mic, is being severely skewed by its condition. An Ovation or Godin will be even more disappointing if they're not set up properly, since they cost more. They won't work right without a set up either. No mandolin, no matter its price or pedigree, will function correctly without a set up. It is their nature.

Acoustic-electrics are compromises intended to solve specific problems, and they are all reproductions of the acoustic sound that never really match an acoustic through a microphone. In other words, I think your disappointment may stem from the wrong issues and you might be trying to solve the wrong problem.

I'm only one of a number of full-time professional mandolinists here, and I earn my living exclusively with acoustic-electric instruments (that's not a brag, just credentials), but out of Christian friendship I'm compelled to say that I'm becoming convinced that you're barking up the wrong tree.

For less money than it will cost for the Washburn with Shadow combination, or even an Ovation or Godin, you could have a first-rate set up done and afford some top of the line electronics for your mandolin. And those electronics can follow you from mandolin to mandolin as you upgrade over time, so it's a worthy investment.

[Ben Milne]

Yeh, the issues you're talking about with your Savannah are purely setup issues.
That being said the Godin A8 plays really nicely and does sound nice plugged in. It's a bit quiet if you want to jam acoustically, this becomes an advantage if you need to practice quietly. Hey, get a setup done on your Savannah and you'll have it to jam with.

Until you get into big bucks on really nice stuff such as Jon Mann's instruments, the Epi MM-50E is a pretty good choice and value for a does it all instrument.

[Tim2723]

I agree the the Epi is a good choice, but I read this as saying he wants to buy the Washburn and put the Epiphone electronics on it. That's going to be a bit pricey in the end. The Shadow electronics for the Epiphone won't fit the Savannah and might not fit the next upgrade mando if there is one. (EDIT: I take that back, they make an A-style version, but it's almost $300.) That's a potential problem I think.

Assuming I understand the problem (and I often don't!) I think he'd make out better getting the Savannah set up then putting a K&K on it with a good preamp. A lot less money in the long haul.

The mandolin component of the Epiphone is based on an economy-class F-5 framework and isn't really all that much better than the Savannah (OK, maybe a little), it just has some decent electronics. It is, after all, a $500 F-5 which is never that fantastic, plus the cost of the electronics, so it's more like a $300 mandolin. We all know you don't get a masterpiece F-5 for that money. You can add even better electronics to an existing econo mandolin for less money and come out ahead in the end.

Follow me through this logic and see if I have it right:

• • You're playing in a church with guitars and drums, but not at rock concert volumes.
  • You play through a mic and can't hear yourself in the monitors
  • You're banging as hard as you can, yet you don't have feedback issues to deal with (which is why most people buy Ovations and Godins in the first place)
  • You have a couple of month's mandolin experience and you don't have a fortune to spend
  • You'd like to keep as much acoustic tone as possible
  • Your Savannah mandolin plays horribly because it's not set up correctly (you can fix most of that for free with our help)
  • You're looking at a $500 AE mandolin you heard on YouTube
  • For about $500 (or at least less than a new Ovation or Godin) you can set up the Savannah and add as good if not better electronics than the Epiphone
  • You can take those new electronics anywhere you go in the mandolin world and they will be good

I don't know about the other guys, but if you treat that like a mathematical equation then in my book the thing to do us to get a set up and add a quality pickup.

[Mandodrumkeywind Player]

Tim , that is correct! I also don't like the action on the Savannah, the nut is way too high I think.

But I can live with all of that if I could just improve the intonation on it. And if I could get some cool electronics for it, then I'm willing to give it a try.

So what's the first step I need to take?

Thanks everyone for spending the time on my questions!

[Tim2723]

OK, then it's easy. The first step is to get the mandolin set up. This will include the nut and intonation issues as well as several other steps should they be needed. If you need help getting a proper set up in your area, or if you'd like to tackle the job yourself, we can help with that as well. If you choose a technician to do the work, be sure to tell him about your plans to install electronics.

While the set up is being done, start researching your pickup choices. There are piezoelectric bridges, miniature clip-on mics, soundboard transducers, and magnetic pickups (like the Shadow). Be prepared to answer very specific questions about your amplification equipment, the conditions under which you play, and have a good handle on your true budget.

Set up and pickup choices are best discussed in the Equipment Forum where you'll meet a great many more experts on those topics. Meet the fine folks and make friends, gather up information and learn all they have to teach you, but don't act until you get your instrument up and running correctly. You may find that your needs and desires change once you have a proper mandolin in your hands.

Good luck and welcome again!

[Mandodrumkeywind Player]

Well, I think my problems have been solved. Friday night I stopped by a local music store and played on a Fender A/E. The action on it was was fantastic, and it played in tune.....imagine that! But I wanted to see what it sounded like on an amp, and amazingly it sounded like a mandolin.

It addressed all of my problems: good intonation (after playing scales up and down the neck), lower strings and frets play in tune, the action is very easy on it, AND it's acoustic/electric yet sounds like a mandolin through the amp. And, it's only $250!

So, unless you guys know something I don't know, I'm gonna have the sales guy set a new one up for me and go pick it up on Friday. Whatchya think 'bout that?

[Ben Milne]

Over the years our ears and tastes develop, and really only sampling owning trading instruments is the way this happens. Right now the Fender may very well be the instrument you need. In a few years you'll probably decide you want something else and be willing to spend your money differently.

Hopefully your judgement isn't being clouded by something shiny and new...
If it plays nicely and you like the sound... great! You've found your next piece in your mandolin journey. Who are we to tell you what to do (or what not to... We aren't all "PROS" as you put it, just players with enough interest in our instruments to discuss all manner of related topics with like minded folk from around the world).

The AE mandolin you're looking at may very well be a great bridging instrument between what you have and something more serious. In my experience (most around here would agree) they are a bit of a compromise both acoustically and electrically. you'll get left for dead in an acoustic jam, and the tone from the pickup (is it magnetic?) leaves a lot to be desired. Magnetic pickups are great if your are wanting to create FX etc but the one in the Shadow pickup you mention is probably the only one I would think is anywhere near having a mandolin sound.

Remember when you are plugged into the amp, you're still hearing your instrument acoustically, it's just being reinforced by the amp. someone is on the other side of your church they wont be hearing the percussive snap and woody body tones directly like you do when standing in front of it. What they are left with is a representation of the notes being played, but perhaps not with the traditional mandolin tone; perhaps like you said, it will sound more like a guitar.

As Tim suggests, your current instrument will benefit greatly from a few simple tweaks. The action at the nut can be lowered and positioning the bridge correctly will do wonders for your intonation issues. Here's a previous thread explaining how to set your bridge position, though ideally it should be done after your nut issues are addressed, followed by setting a bridge height. Email Rob (details in post #6 in that thread) for an in-depth guide on this.
With a decent setup, your instrument will feel and play like a different beast and perhaps settle your MAS issues while you save a bit more money. Playing this instrument into a microphone is going to give you the most realistic tone available, as an amplified microphone is amongst the fundamentals of sound reinforcement.

I'm not going to tell you not to upgrade now (I'm all for having multiple mandolins on hand for various reasons) but I think you'd benefit greatly by spending a little on the instrument you have now and making your next mandolin more of an upgrade. I think you were probably on a better path looking at the MM-50E. These can be had pretty cheap on special, less if you can find one secondhand.

Like I said at the start of this post the only way to develop your tastes is to get your hands on different instruments so yes, if you feel the Fender is the one for now, go for it, it will still be beneficial.

[hank]

I'm another non pro but from my experience i suggestion getting your mandolin set up for now while you try more mandolins out both in and above your price range. My favorite sounding amplified mandolin is Rigel. Their A model used might seem like a lot($1-2K?) but i believe the quality, playability and resale will more than make up for the difference in cost. Buying on the cheap is OK if thats really what you want but thats also what put you behind the Savannah that you quickly outgrew.

[Tim2723]

It isn't the end of the world, it's just a mandolin. The only thing I would suggest is that you go back to the store, hook the mandolin up the way you had it that sounded good to you, then ask the salesman to play a little on it while you go as far away as possible. Try to get a good 40 or 50 feet away so that you're hearing just the amp sound. If you still like it, then congratulations, you've found the next in a long line of mandolins you'll own as the years pass. The very worst thing that can happen is that you change your mind in a few months and start looking again. You might loose a few bucks in the process, but people buy and sell mandolins all the time. It's all part of the journey.

[Tim2723]

Oh, and I do hope you'll do as Ben suggests and at least try to get the Savannah's bridge adjusted correctly using the simple process he points to. I think it's important that you do it for two reasons. First, you owe it to yourself to at least try to improve the Savannah, as you've already paid for that one and it may make such a big improvement that you reconsider your course. Second, it's something all mandolinists need to learn anyway, as you may have to do it 'on the fly' some day. Even if you buy the Fender you'll need this skill since it will need adjusting from time to time. It costs nothing at all and you have nothing to loose.

[CES]

I have a Fender FM 62SE, and it gets the job done. My brother is currently playing it his church's youth band on a fairly regular basis with good results. Not the best unplugged tone, but not horrible. Not the best plugged in tone, either, but it sounds like a mandolin and handles high volumes fairly well...a good pre-amp makes it a very functional instrument. So, if you like the feel and sound of the Fender you played, then go for it! It can serve you well for quite some time.

That said, I played a friend's Godin A-8 a few weeks ago and was really impressed with its plugged in tone, and surprised at it's unplugged tone and volume as well. When I finally come to the realization that my brother's not giving my Fender back anytime soon , the Godin will probably be my next A/E move. While I really like Jon Mann's instruments, I don't play at a level (wrt my skill or how often I need to plug in) to justify his cost (which I actually find quite reasonable for his quality work)...and, I don't think the Godin will leave you wanting for quite a while...

I would absolutely recommend either setting up your Savannah or having it set up at the shop that set up the Fender to your liking...you'll find it plays and sounds a ton better, and it can be your "campfire mandolin" for years to come.

Now, to throw yet another twist into the fray, if you're not playing much bluegrass I'd consider looking at flattopped instruments as well, like Big Muddy, Redline Traveller, etc...much better quality and tone than their carved top counterparts (I own a Flatiron 1N, Bozeman made--not the more recent Chinese versions) at a much lower price point...

I'm sure you're sitting there thinking, "These guys are nuts!" I'd agree totally with that assessment. I also feel that, while I'm a fan of inexpensive instruments and feel they can be GREAT tools to make music on, I've experienced the upgrade in quality and tone that comes from just a little more cash (seriously, 500-1500 bucks opens up a whole new world). So it's not that we have anything inherently against Fender or Washburn, we just know there are better longer term options out there, at least in our opinion. If you're feeling the Fender, buy it, and play the heck out of it!! And, if finances are such that < 500 is what you have to work with, then don't sweat it...a Savannah in a real musician's hands will sound better than I do on my Silverangel...