Can today’s violin makers improve on perfection? WashTimes artcle

[rgray]

Can today’s violin makers improve on perfection?
Even experienced performers can’t pick out sound of the revered Stradivarius

When is a fiddle a violin?

One day late last year, 17 experienced violinists gathered in a hotel room in Indianapolis to tackle the question. Each one in turn was blindfolded and played a few bars of Tchaikovsky’s violin concerto on six violins — two made by Antonio Stradivari, one by Bartolomeo Guarneri del Gesu and three by modern violin makers.

The challenge was to distinguish the three old master violins. According to the results of the experiment published in the January issue of the scientific journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, only three of the 17 guessed right.

Joseph Curtin, a violin maker from Michigan who helped prepare the test, told reporters, “There was no evidence that people had any idea what they were playing.”

So much for the celestial tone of the Stradivarius, and the golden voice of the Guarneri del Gesu.

Read more at

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...on-perfection/

[UncleNorm]

For the record, the Guarneri family had many fiddle makers, but no "Bartolomeo," at least by that name alone. The Hill book says that Joseph (or Giuseppi) Guarneri del Gesu (same person) may have been christened "Bartolomeo Joseph," but census records later list only a Giuseppi. Apparently, no Bartolomeo.

[Stephen Perry]

Players who play one violin all the time aren't necessarily the best judges. I've had much different experiences hanging around adjusters and makers. Certainly the best modern instruments are really really good!

Also, have to keep in mind that relatively few of the Strads and del Gesus are of the really incredible variety.

[mrmando]

If tests like these could establish any definitive conclusion, they wouldn't need to keep doing the tests.

[Mandobart]

There's a little more info out on the fiddle forums. Strads and other precious instruments are lent out on occasion because the owners know they should be played. However, they don't get played much, and the violins on this taste test had some specific rules, one of which they could not change the strings. Although these instruments have survived hundreds of years of playing and storage, and not always in the most ideal conditions, they surely need a new set of strings now and then. The modern instruments, on the other hand, were all recently set up and had new strings. This doesn't mean that modern instruments are better (or not) I think it means that any instrument sounds best when well setup and with non-worn out strings. I have a 1970's German student fiddle, an 1880's German trade fiddle and I've played a violin built in 1740, that was the regular player for its owner. The older instruments, when properly setup and maintained in playing condition, sound hands-down the best, to me.

[Bernie Daniel]

If tests like these could establish any definitive conclusion, they wouldn't need to keep doing the tests.

I mostly agree. Except that one conclusion I think that was established is that the performers could not pick out the "best" violins when blindfolded.

And I'd bet that and the exact same result would happen to blinfolded mandolin virtuosos who were given a series of F-5 mandolins ranging from the very best to the very good I expect.

People know a mandolin sounds the better than any other when they can see it!

[Willie Poole]

The old syaing "The older the violin, the sweeter the music" Is true but they must be played always and not kept in a storage locker or whatever....You take a Strad right out a case where it has been on display for years and it would not sound anywhere near what it did when it was in service every day.....I have an old fiddle hanging on one of my walls and when fiddle players come by and try it our they say it ain`t much but I loaned it to another friend for over a week and he played it everyday and said it got better and better each day of playing, same with a mandolin, guitar, bass fiddle etc....

Willie

[Bernie Daniel]

... The older instruments, when properly setup and maintained in playing condition, sound hands-down the best, to me.

But you still need to prove that you can pick out the older violin on the basis of its sound alone --i.e., blindfolded or at least not knowing what instrument is playing.
Perhapa you could do it but these 17 in the test seemed to have failed.

There are of course any number of Stards that are actually being played day to day so the test could repeated and done right. It would be certainly interesting for sure.

[Mandobart]

But you still need to prove that you can pick out the older violin on the basis of its sound alone --i.e., blindfolded or at least not knowing what instrument is playing. Perhaps you could do it but these 17 in the test seemed to have failed....

Well, sure, if I was trying to prove anything. But I'm not. I don't care if I (or anyone else) can pick out one builder/year/model over another of anything. Kind of like wine tasting. I like wine, and am lucky in that there are dozens of wineries close by. I know what I like, but I won't say I could pick it out in a blind taste of similar varietals. So with instruments. My friend Kevin let me play his fiddle (in a bar!) and I said "man that is the sweetest sounding fiddle I've ever played." Then he had me check the label (actually it was ink stamped on the inside of the back plate). I read 1740 and handed her back real carefully. I could probably tell the difference between that fiddle and my others, blindfolded. But I don't play blindfolded. And I don't bring really valuable instruments to play in a bar.

[Charlieshafer]

If tests like these could establish any definitive conclusion, they wouldn't need to keep doing the tests.

I think that the fact that there isn't a definitive conclusion is in itself the definitive conclusion. As Stephen says, the modern makers are really really good. These tests happen every year with different players, violins, circumstances and they all reach the inconclusive conclusion. The fact that the Emerson Quartet recorded the Mendelssohn Octet using old instruments and new ones by Sam Zygmuntowicz, inviting the listener to try to tell the difference shows that the new ones can hold their own. Not better, not worse, but that they're at the level of where they can be taken very seriously.

[Larry S Sherman]

I wish I could tell a good one with no blindfold and the lights on. Violins/fiddles are such a mystery to me.

Larry

[Ivan Kelsall]

There are Violin makers building today,who make stunningly beautiful & wonderful sounding instruments 'right off the block'.That these instruments will only improve with time goes without saying,but by how much we don't know,seeing as they might not 'mature' for a long,long time to come. It's not beyond the imagination to think that in maybe a 100 - 200 years,some of these instruments 'may' sound as good as if not 'better' that the top flight 'old master' Violins.
Several years ago,the UK TV station the BBC,broadcast a programme about Violin building. I can't remember who she was,but an internationally renowned concert Violinist was on hand to play a newly made Violin,built by the featured builder.The new Violin was compared back to back (face to face ?) with the concert Violinist's Strad.To me,the new Violin sounded every bit as good as the Strad.& the Violinist playing it was amazed at the tone. It was explained that 'yes',there were areas where it could (would) improve,but that's where all the playing over years comes into play. I'd be willing to bet that the new Violin,if it's continued to develop it's tone,would now be a sensational instrument by any standard.
Improving on 'perfection' ? - well,you can't do that. But to equal what we currently 'think of as perfection',& maybe in years to come,realise that maybe we've 'come a bit closer to perfection',i firmly believe we can,in the same way as improvements to anything can be made.Perfection is never achieved,we just get closer & closer & closer & ..........
Ivan

[mrmando]

I loaned it to another friend for over a week and he played it everyday and said it got better and better each day of playing, same with a mandolin, guitar, bass fiddle etc....

Willie, thanks for leaving "banjo" off the list.

[Wolfboy]

I think that the fact that there isn't a definitive conclusion is in itself the definitive conclusion. As Stephen says, the modern makers are really really good. These tests happen every year with different players, violins, circumstances and they all reach the inconclusive conclusion.

*LOL* Well said!

"Tests" of this sort have been going on for a long time, and they always prove exactly what Charlieshafer says, i.e. not much, if anything, other than that some contemporary makers can hold their own with the great makers of the past. I've posted this quote before but I'll post it again because it's so apropos to this thread... Cellist Pablo Casals, from Conversations with Casals, 1954:

"My friend Auguste Mangeot, the Director of the Monde Musical in Paris and the founder of the Ecole Normale de Musique, had often discussed with me the difficulty for students and young musicians of acquiring old Italian instruments, and the quite unjustified contempt people have for new instruments. We decided to 'have a trial.' It was about 1910. We organized a competition which took place at the Salle des Agriculteurs in Paris. There were forty cellos, some of them by Stradivarius and other well-known makers. I played them all. We had given a number to each instrument and a list to each listener. While I played the hall was kept in darkness, and when the lights were put on the listeners wrote down their impression of the last number. Do you know which instrument got the highest praise? A cello made by Paul Kaul from Nantes [a then-contemporary French maker]. Another competition took place two or three years later, and it was for violins this time. Curiously enough, it was an instrument made by the same Paul Kaul which won the competition."

[Stephen Perry]

Very few individuals can probably use the extra sensitivity of the very finest instruments. Keep in mind that the instrument is so the player can do what the player wants and needs easily and in a way the player likes.

I used to set up race cars. They'd feel good to me. The real driver would come back and ask for a little more jacking here or there. And then say something like "Think the left rear tire is soft" Well, I'd add 1/2 lb of air. Then it would be good. People who are at the top of their game are more sensitive.

People who adjust things for a living are also often more sensitive. I'm surprised how many rather decent violin players prove quite insensitive to the auditory effects of adjustments that are very clear to those adjusting, although they do catch on.

There are some non-audible things I like about some of the really good violins. They seem to be resistant to pushing the strings down and set off with an immediacy that I find exciting. The audience doesn't hear that directly, but it is a nice thing for the player!

[Jim]

I think it is necessary to become used to playing the instrument too. If an instrument sits and isn't played it doesn't sound as good , everyone says so. I feel that learning the individual instrument is at least as important. I can just pick up any Mandolin or Guitar and play it and say this does or doesn't sound good but to really get the best out of it I'm going to have to play it for a while. So to have even the best of players play these in a comparison does not allow the instruments true potential to be discovered. I feel it's true potentioal is only found when a player has used it for some time and can find the subtleties that make that one instrument special. Then there is the fact that some instruments work better for some people than for others. Too many variables, but always a fun test to do.

[Willie Poole]

Good points Jim, Also the tightness of the bow will change the sound of a fiddle (violin), a friend of mine adjusts his bow depending on what type of song he is playing....I`m sure those doing the test more than likely didn`t take time to adjust the bow they were using, or did they all use the same bow or one of their own? Like you said, "Too many variables to make a true test"...

I agree with Ivan also, and if you do reach perfection it can`t get any better....I am a bowler and a few years back Glen Allison rolled three perfect 300 games in a league in one night and they ABC would not give him an award because they said there wouldn`t be any reason for bowlers to try and beat that, he sued and won the case and the feat has been done several times since then....NOW THAT IS PERFECTION.....

[Bernie Daniel]

Well, sure, if I was trying to prove anything. But I'm not. I don't care if I (or anyone else) can pick out one builder/year/model over another of anything. Kind of like wine tasting. I like wine, and am lucky in that there are dozens of wineries close by. I know what I like, but I won't say I could pick it out in a blind taste of similar varietals. So with instruments. My friend Kevin let me play his fiddle (in a bar!) and I said "man that is the sweetest sounding fiddle I've ever played." Then he had me check the label (actually it was ink stamped on the inside of the back plate). I read 1740 and handed her back real carefully. I could probably tell the difference between that fiddle and my others, blindfolded. But I don't play blindfolded. And I don't bring really valuable instruments to play in a bar.

I agree. I was just continuing the thought I guess. I would like to see a test like this done on mandolins -- but it is were done it might take some of the fun out the discussions about tone and volume.

[Bernie Daniel]

.... I can just pick up any Mandolin or Guitar and play it and say this does or doesn't sound good but to really get the best out of it I'm going to have to play it for a while.....

Me too. But in my case it never really does get to sounding its best............

[JeffD]

I believe that Stradivarious, like Lloyd Loar many many years later, became the "criterion". It became more of a bullseye than a heirchy of rating - how close could you get to sounding like a Strad, as opposed to how good can you get to sounding.

I believe that there are probably a handful of violins today every bit as good if not better than the Strad, but will never be considered so, only because the sound different than a Strad.

Just so with Lloyd Loar F5 mandolins. If that is the criterion and the exemplar, than its the best by definition, never to be exceeded. Nothing can sound more like the thing itself, than the thing itself. But I would say there are a handful of luthiers making mandolins every bit as good, if not better, but not exactly exactly the same sound.

[Bertram Henze]

Perfection just means that a goal has been reached. Now forget that goal and find new ones.

[farmerjones]

Luthiers will often use the term, "all things being equal."
Reason being, all things are not equal. Lots of good pickin time can be wasted. . .

[mrmando]

Hey, if you want to experience one of these violin tastings for yourself, try this:

http://www.violintasting.com/

Coming up next weekend in Corvallis, Oregon. New American instruments alongside old Italian ones ... maybe you can do your own blind test!

[Charlieshafer]

Nice to see that in a relaxed atmosphere!

[AKmusic]

I think it is necessary to become used to playing the instrument too. If an instrument sits and isn't played it doesn't sound as good , everyone says so. I feel that learning the individual instrument is at least as important. I can just pick up any Mandolin or Guitar and play it and say this does or doesn't sound good but to really get the best out of it I'm going to have to play it for a while. So to have even the best of players play these in a comparison does not allow the instruments true potential to be discovered. I feel it's true potentioal is only found when a player has used it for some time and can find the subtleties that make that one instrument special. Then there is the fact that some instruments work better for some people than for others. Too many variables, but always a fun test to do.

If they would use a Tonerite on that Strat, it would always be at it's best!