Good choice for to play Irish Music

[JP07]

Hi,
I am playing irish tunes with a Weber A Style mandolin. Do you think that a Weber Aspen mandolin, so a flat mandolin, would sound better for Irish Music ?
Thanks

Maybe, this thread is not at the god place...

[Anglocelt]

Hi,
I am playing irish tunes with a Weber A Style mandolin. Do you think that a Weber Aspen mandolin, so a flat mandolin, would sound better for Irish Music ?
Thanks

Maybe, this thread is not at the god place...

I have played Irish music for many years on many different types of mandolin. Whilst many players in Britain and Ireland like to use flat-tops there is no reason why anyone should. Another supposed 'rule' is that round-hole mandolins are better than f-holes.

I have tried all kinds of flat-tops (European style) and carved-tops (American style) and I have ended up playing both!. The differences in sound are quite subtle but as a rule you can say that the carved-tops go louder, provided you play them with a stiff pick, and the flat-tops are more resonant but quieter. With flat-tops you get more 'twang' or metallic string noise. With carved-tops you get more variety of tone.

I mostly play an Old Wave carved-top f-hole instrument, which works fine for playing in pub sessions, where I need to be heard. Most professionals seem to play carved-top intruments, such as Sobells, which are European/American hybrid carved-tops with oval holes. I used to have a Sobell but I find the Old Wave more versatile.

What matters most is being heard in a group and that probably depends more on your playing style than instrument type and playing with a quite stiff pick will bring out more tone and volume from whichever mandolin you play.

Kevin

[danb]

I have played Irish music for many years on many different types of mandolin. Whilst many players in Britain and Ireland like to use flat-tops there is no reason why anyone should. Another supposed 'rule' is that round-hole mandolins are better than f-holes.

Kevin

Pretty much any type of mandolin can sound good in (Irish/Bluegrass/insert genre here) music. There are conventions that folks use, but it all comes down to personal preference that defines your own sound in the end.

There are some subtler differences in equipment- bluegrass tends to be played with a heavier pick & strings- this has a "Darkening" effect on tone, giving more bass and thump to it. Irish players tend to use quite thin picks as an aid to playing the triplets (or to match tenor banjo playing, which many mandolin players in Irish music use as their first instrument).

I've sure tried a lot of different types- I'm as happy on an F-holed mandolin as an oval hole. I started with thinner picks, and gradually worked my way up and loosened my grip. I still vary the picks by the instrument (different picks for different mandos, pick the one that sounds best).

Try a bunch, pick the one you like the sound of the most and that feels right to you. Maybe lean a bit towards volume if you have to choose, the mando will disappear in a big noisy session.

[Bertram Henze]

As the gentlemen above have mentioned, being heard is important. A thinner pick brings out the treble and can cut your way through the noise - 0.73 is about what works for me.
The rest of the mandolin doesn't matter that much, really. What matters is your playing style and knowing the tunes.

[Goodin]

Hi,
I am playing irish tunes with a Weber A Style mandolin. Do you think that a Weber Aspen mandolin, so a flat mandolin, would sound better for Irish Music ?
Thanks

Maybe, this thread is not at the god place...

Yeah, what Dan and Kevin said. But in general I will disagree with what was said about oval holes being quieter. I have played and owned oval hole mandolins that are just as loud as any F hole I have played. Particularly my Ajr snakehead. It's one of the loudest mandolins I have ever heard and the harder it's picked the louder it gets. I think volume should be judged on a per-mandolin basis and not necessarily the body style, in general.

I play ovals and F-holes in sessions and with my band and I like and dislike different aspects of both. My Gibson F-4 is very warm and balanced and has crystal clear punchy trebles but the short neck and flat fretboard makes it slightly more difficult to play. My newer f-hole (A body) mandolin "cuts" and has deep, meaty bass and mids, but is a bit shrill on the highs. The longer neck and radiused fretboard makes makes it slightly easier to play and do ornamentation. I mostly play my F-hole at sessions and with the band nowadays.

I dont have much experience with Webers or many new oval hole mandolins but I have a Mid Missouri flat top which sounds very nice for Irish music. And for the money it cant be beat.

The pick choice makes a huge difference in tone and volume, and I will agree with others that using the thickest pick possible to get good volume and tone, while being able to do ornamentation is ideal. Thinner picks are easier to do triplets but volume and tone are compromised; but get too thick of a pick and its hard to do triplets. Banjo players use .46-.60 on average. I started using .60 on mandolin, and experimented for many years until I settled on a Blue Chip 35, which I think is about .88. I doubt I will ever use any other pick.

So in conclusion - flat top or arched, oval or F, it doesn't matter, just pick the mandolin you like! And experiment on pick thicknesses and materials.

[JeffD]

I have, and love, a Weber Aspen II. I still think it is a really great undervalued mandolin. I play Irish Traditional on it regularly.

What makes it, perhaps, suited to IT? First of all it is not a Gibson tone. Its a sound all its own. I think (my own opinion which is mine, the opinion that I have which is my opinion) that a traditional creamy Gibson kind of sticks out in an IT setting.

The Aspen has this bell like clarity, very beautiful, making it great for long stretches of rapid individual notes that you want to sound individually. Like individual ornaments on a Christmas tree. And yet it does not lack for sustain. My gosh, mine sure doesn't.

Yes I often use my Aspen II for an old timey jam, becuse it is so much fun to play. But in the case of OT, my Gibson is preferred. That iconic creamy Gibson tone just works well in OT. And, of course, bluegrass.

To my hands and ear it has the reliable sound and playability of a much more expensive instrument. I haven't heard enough of them to tell, but I would guess they are pretty uniform sounding, i.e. mine is not an anomoly. I don't know why they are not more popular. Perhaps its the different shape.

I also think, perhaps in a wierd way, its not as popular because its such a good value. There is a childish part of me that I wishes the instrument was more expensive, because the only thing it lacks is bragging rights. I myself bought it to be a "second mandolin", and found that really it is another first mandolin. Its a go to mandolin, especially for Irish, and Scandi.

[Dan Hulse]

I have an older Webber Aspen (1?) with a K & K pickup, and play in an Irish folk rock band and at church. This mandolin is the best mandolin I have owned to date. Like the saying goes "to be successful use what you have, where you are". I also favor a medium (Dunlop Ultex .90) pick, but I also play Irish tenor banjo, bouzouki & guitar.

[Bertram Henze]

the only thing it lacks is bragging rights.

In Irish music, you brag with your playing, not with your instrument, so that is just as well for a relaxed attitude. With an expensive instrument, I always feel the pressure to live up to its quality or else I'd be looking like I pretended to hold it while its real owner was at the restrooms and I ran away with it. I'd far rather play an old beat-up cigar box so people think I am the one who makes the beautiful sound.

[Shelagh Moore]

I currently use my National RM-1 (mostly and at least a couple of times weekly in sessions) and Nava 2-point (induced arch flattop... mainly at home) for Irish music. Prior to those I used a Daley f-hole A style and, longer ago, an Eccleshall A style flattop and a Martin A style canted top. All are, or were, excellent in different ways.

I'd agree with what Bertram said earlier

The rest of the mandolin doesn't matter that much, really. What matters is your playing style and knowing the tunes.

[JeffD]

In Irish music, you brag with your playing, not with your instrument, so that is just as well for a relaxed attitude.

Wish it were that way every where, every genre.

Your contention is that there is perhaps less instrument brand focus at IT jams than elsewhere. Hmmm

I always feel the pressure to live up to its quality or else I'd be looking like I pretended to hold it while its real owner was at the restrooms and I ran away with it. I'd far rather play an old beat-up cigar box so people think I am the one who makes the beautiful sound.

I know what you mean. Boy do I.

[zoukboy]

This is what I play:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...t=roger+landes

and it's the loudest mandolin I have ever played, responds very well to left hand ornamentation and generally does everything I need a mando to do for Irish music.

[Richard Eskite]

In our Irish music class with Marla Fibish, we have two Collings A's, a Flatiron, a Loar 700, a couple of teens Gibsons and a Breedlove F. Sorta like Gloria Ferrar said about wine glasses, any glass with wine in it is a wine glass. I keep thinking I'd bring my RM-1, but I don't play well enough in class to be so loud.

I do have to say, this class has been an amazing experience. Marla is a great player and very effective teacher.

[JP07]

Really very happy for all your quick and serious opinions ! There is a lot of answers to my questioning. I was thinking that maybe F or A styles were classic bluegrass instruments, and flat ones were more designed for Irish music...
I understand that it is not reality, and that it could be more complex...

[Mike Snyder]

Anything goes in the sessions I've played in the Midwest. I see more F5s it seems, and I play a Gibson F5. Generally speaking the oval hole As will not be heard in a session of any size but exceptions exist. An F hole mandolin just seems to be the most versatile across the board. Americana to Zydeco.

[allenhopkins]

The mandolin's a relative newcomer to Irish traditional music, so there really is no template for what it "should" sound like. I play at seisuns with whatever instrument I happen to pick up, from an f-hole pressed-top Strad-O-Lin to a carved-top oval-hole Eastman DGM-2.

Play an instrument you like to play, whose sound you enjoy, and one that seems to "mesh" with the music you're hearing, while having sufficient volume to "hold its own." No real rules.

[JeffD]

If you can play the tunes and refrain from chopping, any mandolin will do.

[Bertram Henze]

Just make sure to tell everybody that your great-grandpa from Killarney stole it from a widowed mother of six one night on a hunger ship in 1847.

[JP07]

So a lot of mandolins can be used for playing IT, the player will do the difference for it.

However stays the problem of to be heard, and to hear oneself in sessions. Many years ago, I was playing mandolin in a band and I changed with banjo because I could not hear me. It was a flat one. Here too, maybe we can talk about the style of playing.

Now I am coming back playing IT with mandolin because I really like this instrument and I don't want to meet the same problem, so this thread.

Without speaking about the technic, for exemple, what is the difference between oval hole and F holes on carved mandolins in terms of loudness or volume ? I have no possibiliy of trying by myself.

[Bertram Henze]

Without speaking about the technic, for exemple, what is the difference between oval hole and F holes on carved mandolins in terms of loudness or volume ? I have no possibiliy of trying by myself.

You might want to compare these two, for example, but from my experience the hole shape is not making much of a difference. That guy plays his machines in our sessions, and easily cuts through with either one. Influences on mandolin volume are much more complex than just holes: bridge, string gauge, etc. etc.
BTW, adding a guitar appendage makes no difference either

[whistler]

I agree with the above replies. I know what I like to play (flat-top, flat-back) - maybe just because it's what I'm used to. But, whether you play Irish music on a Neapolitan bowl-back or an F-5, it's how you play it that counts.

[JP07]

I understand your opinions. Thanks a lot for helping me !

[bruce.b]

I bought a used Newell Roger Landes model here a couple of months ago and it's amazing. It's really loud and powerful and has a sweet beautiful tone. It has a fantastic low end and chords sound great, like they're coming from a lower tuned instrument.

The other mandolin I own and play daily is an Arches FT. I love this one too. To me it sounds like a hybrid between a flat top and a carved top. Pretty loud, it seems really loud when you look at the thin body, but not quite the volume of the Newell.

Both are beautifully built. They sound completely different to me. For anyone who thinks you can categorize the sound of a flat top, listen to these back to back and I'm sure you'll change your mind.

I'd just find a mandolin you love the sound and feel of and play that, whatever the construction.

[Randi Gormley]

I've played a bandolim at our sessions -- it's a higher, tinkly kind of sound and it seems to be heard above the usual din just because it's so different. I usually go for the darker, lower sound with my strad-o-lin, but sometimes if your instrument is slightly different in timbre, it also stands out. just another thing to think about. It's a flat-top oval hole (it's also my avatar).

[Dan Hulse]

...However stays the problem of to be heard, and to hear oneself in sessions. Many years ago, I was playing mandolin in a band and I changed with banjo because I could not hear me...

Oh, AND you want to be heard? At the risk of blasphemy and cruel jokes, yes get a banjo! At least as a second instrument.

[mikeyes]

Without speaking about the technic, for exemple, what is the difference between oval hole and F holes on carved mandolins in terms of loudness or volume ? I have no possibiliy of trying by myself.

As a rule, oval hole mandolins are softer sounding and often have less volume, but there are so many exceptions to that rule that it is better for you to play the instruments and hear someone play it before you buy. F hole mandolins are designed to be heard at a distance but you can find many that can barely be heard. To add even more complexity, f hole mandolins project away from the player and sound much louder to those in front of it than those behind it. As a result a player may pound on his instrument (which means less technique) in an effort to hear what they are playing.

I have a Weber Bighorn D hole that is very loud in any situation and a 1921 A2 Gibson that is loud in a room with few players. I thing the reason for that is the timbre of the instrument. The A2 blends while the Bighorn stands out and projects due to the construction and the X bracing.

I play my F5 in bigger sessions as it is very loud and is a wonderful instrument to play. I tend to use thicker picks but each instrument responds best to a different pick and I have to play them differently in order to get the best sound.

The bottom line is that a) you can play ITM on any mandolin - the original mandolin players such as Mick Moloney played tater bugs and were there about the same time as the banjo came in or a little before; b) choose the mandolin you like best and try it out in a session first if you can. Some mandolins sound better miked on stage, others in a session , still others anywhere (and some nowhere.) It will take a while, but you can figure it out.

I take my mandolin to Ireland with me (or other travels) and leave the banjo. It is a lot easier to carry, it fits in the overhead, and in a pinch you can put it in a double tennis racquet case and no one will bug you. (And if you screw up in a session, no one will hear you <G>)

Mike Keyes