A 1930s hybrid mandolin?

[Cary Fagan]

On another, older thread, I posted pics of this mandolin built by P.N. Porayko of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, from a Kijijji listing. I couldn't resist and went out, saw it, and bought it. The back seam was open, which I fixed, otherwise it just needed cleaning up, oiling, and new strings. I've restored about 25 vintage mandos before but this is the best by far. A beautiful, clear sound, with the resonance of an oval hole but not at all tubby and with more clarity.

What's more, it has an F5 scale length. Does anyone know of any oval hole with a longer scale length from that period? Common now, of course. As well, the fretboard is very nicely radiused. I am not aware of mandolins from that early with radiused boards.

The workmanship is very fine. The shape reminds me of a mando-bass. Carved spruce top (two cross braces, above and below the hole), carved flamed maple back, real tortoiseshell pickguard that is almost sculptural. The headstock is a separate piece from the neck but the join is only discernible by a fine line. Slimmest neck I've ever felt--must be a truss rod in there since it's straight. I've played it solo and, on the weekend, in a stringband setting, and it was terrific.

So far I've found very little about the builder, but I'm trying to find out more. I bought it from the daughter of a woman who played it in the 1930s in a Ukrainian mandolin orchestra in Hamilton. There's a picture of the group from the time.

[Cary Fagan]

Here's the label, and the photo of the orchestra. Since almost all mandolins of the time came from factories--Gibson, Washburn, Regal, etc, I'm wondering if there were very many individual builders making carved-top mandolins at the time. Sometimes one sees a homemade instrument, somewhat crude, but one by a real luthier? Or am I exaggerating the unusual qualities of this instrument? What do you think?

[MikeEdgerton]

That's beautiful. Wonderful detail on the heel of the neck.

[JEStanek]

I also love the heel design. Cool story behind this one for sure... I hope you can get some more information.

Jamie

[Jim Garber]

Cary: What do you mean it has a F5 scale? 13 7/8". The neck join looks to me to be the same as std A model Gibsons, starting at the 10th fret. Or am I missing something?

There is one other by this maker I have seen and it is a little more eccentric -- it does have a longer neck, joined at the 15th like an F5 . It was sold by the Vintage fret Shop in Ashland, NH and then appeared later last year on craigslist.

[Bill Snyder]

The comment about the F-5 scale length threw me too. The oval hole Gibsons and the f-hole Gibsons used the same scale length the neck just joined the body at a different fret giving the f-hole mandolins longer necks.
As for the radiused board it is my understanding that some of the Italian builders where using them over 100 years ago.

[Jim Garber]

Since almost all mandolins of the time came from factories--Gibson, Washburn, Regal, etc, I'm wondering if there were very many individual builders making carved-top mandolins at the time.

Well, D'Angelico is an obvious example. I have a heart-shaped octave mandolin made by Achilio Puccinelli of Chicago dated 1931.

The second one pictured here was also made in the 1930s by Philip Interdonati of New York and showed up in these forums a few months ago.

[Jim Garber]

Here is another mandolin by R. A. Mango.

[Jim Garber]

One more ... by Gaetano Puntolillo of New Jersey who also made banjos under the Majestic label. Early lump scroll.

[Cary Fagan]

I thought some knowledgeable people would chime in. I'm very interested to see these other luthier-built mandolins from the period, all distinctive.

The scale is 14 inches. I had thought that Gibson ovals were shorter, but you say they are actually the same and just joined higher on the neck? And you're right, the join is at the 10th fret. Somehow I was visually fooled. And the neck is so slim it's much easier to reach farther than on a Gibson.

Anyone know of a radiused fretboard on an archtop of the period?

Jim, I saw those pics of that other Porayko, only one I've found. (I've emailed the shop to see if they have anything in their records about it, though it's doubtful.) Have also found references to a Hawaiian guitar that was apparently beautiful but the pics were no longer on the site.

OK, maybe he's unique...in Canada!

I've got a number of emails out, so if I do find any more information I'll post it.

[Jim Garber]

A lot of these makers produced a lot more guitars than mandolins and I have some examples of flatback mandolins, for example from Raphael Ciani (D'Angelico's uncle). Favilla was another maker that we might consider more borderline -- maybe more of a larger shop but in the early times might be considered a small shop.

I don't know about radiused -- I can't recall that the D'Angelicos I have played had them-- but that Interdonati above has a scalloped fretboard.

[Jim Garber]

As for the radiused board it is my understanding that some of the Italian builders where using them over 100 years ago.

Yes, Embergher and others of the Roman school used radiused boards on bowlbacks but the question was 1930s makers of carved top instruments.

[pfox14]

Those are some really nice looking mandolins.

[Dobe]

[QUOTE=Jim Garber;1027435]..... heart-shaped octave mandolin made by Achilio Puccinelli of Chicago dated 1931

Jim, I'd wager that OM is quite headstock heavy ;0

[Jim Garber]

[QUOTE=Dobe;1027462]

..... heart-shaped octave mandolin made by Achilio Puccinelli of Chicago dated 1931

Jim, I'd wager that OM is quite headstock heavy ;0

Actually the body is pretty heavy anyway so it is not too bad... not that I play it every day.

[MikeEdgerton]

One more ... by Gaetano Puntolillo of New Jersey who also made banjos under the Majestic label. Early lump scroll.

That body is strikingly similar to the lumpscroll Gibson second line that surfaced last year.

[Bruce Clausen]

That is a beauty, Cary. Looks like you've done a great job on it. I prefer the simpler look to the one in Jim's photos (post #5), which makes me dizzy.

And nice that it was used in a local Ukrainian orchestra. I guess many Canadian cities still have these ensembles. The one in Vancouver has been going since 1928 or so, and one of the players has been with it almost from the beginning. (But he plays on a domra.)

[Cary Fagan]

Thanks, Bruce. Actually, I've send emails to conductors at two or three Canadian mandolin orchestra, all of which seem to have their roots in the Ukrainian community. I've also phoned people with the same last name looking for a relative, but no luck so far. And I have an email out to the music collection specialist at the Museum of Civilization in Ottawa. Likely I'll turn up nothing but it's fun to try.

I'm wondering if anyone has seen a similar tailpiece or if the builder fashioned it himself. It's very well made and rather nice, I think. The string loops catch on these tinyl button-like knobs.

[CES]

Cary, I have no information to add, but, man, what a great find! Nice job on the repair, as well. Keep us posted if anything turns up...I love stuff like this!

[Tom C]

The cross piece is at 15th fret. Not 12th like older Gibsons so I would call it a hybrid .

[Jim Garber]

The cross piece is at 15th fret. Not 12th like older Gibsons so I would call it a hybrid .

You may be looking at the oddball one I posted which does look like that. Here is a full view from the original seller's posting of Cary's mandolin.

I just got this 1918 A4 from the archives for comparison.

[Cary Fagan]

I don't have a Gibson to compare to but judging by pictures, the neck joint does seem lower, though not like an F5. Gibsons have 20 frets by my count to the oval hole, this one has 22. Although that also depends on the placement of the hole, of course. It's certainly a slimmer neck.

Maybe in the next few days I'll get a video of it up for sound.

[MikeEdgerton]

Thanks for the tailpiece closeup, I was wondering what it looked like underneath. The guy was a real artist.

[Jim Garber]

Check out post #21. The neck join is different in the Gibson of course, but I think Cary is correct that it is not like an F5.

[Jason Kessler]

Nothing new to add, but wanted to echo what a beauty that (first) mando is.