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Thread: Amp or PA?

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    Default Amp or PA?

    Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: Amp or PA?
    I'm a bass player in a rock/blues band in the UK, but I'm a newbie(couple of months) when it comes to mandolins, but I have worked out how to do a half-decent version of Steve Earle's 'Copperhead Road' and Rory Gallagher's 'Going To My Home Town', which the band want to play 'live'.
    So I am hoping that you more knowledgeable people out there, can point me in the right direction when it comes to playing in a rock/blues band with a mandolin.
    I have decided to get a Shadow bridge/piezo pickup for my new Morgan Monroe MMS-8, but I need advice on what to put it through, will it sound ok through the PA, or would it sound better through a proper acoustic amp, and if so, what amps would you recommend, and how much power (watts) do I need to cut through an electric band? I do have a pre-amp that is designed for acoustic instruments.
    Cheers

  2. #2

    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Dude . the answer is so subjective . the PA should be reasonable in the mix with the band and you have a good preamp . but everything sounds better through tubes . have you tried playing the mando through your bass amp ? A separate amp might help cut down on feedback and other problems . Of course the type of pick up you use will determine everything else . So give us more details , what mando brand, what kind of pick up are you using/ in it , what type of PA .

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    Is there a "talent" knob? Christian McKee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    If you have a trusted person running sound (including monitors) you might get away with running through the PA, but I wouldn't hassle with that unless the room demanded it. Personally, I value the control from an amp. Volume/power is a thorny question to try and answer, it really kind of depends on how loud your band is, and how prominent you need the mandolin to sound. For a long time I used a Fender Pro Jr. for my acoustic and electric mandolin in a fairly loud 6 piece band, and that's just 15w. These days I play with a Fishman Loudbox which is a LOT more power (even a bit overpowered) but I really like the sound, so I put up with the extra weight/bulk. If you're competing with a kit, guitarist/keys and bass, you're going to need to do a little experimenting to find what works for you. Good luck!
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    I'd consider something like Rolls PM50, and in ear monitors, before running the signal thru the band's mix.

    Loud Stage, hardest thing is hearing yourself, cranking up the floor monitor to compensate increases Feedback challenge.
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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    I'd go through the P.A. Once there are too many amps on the stage, the sound mix gets really unbalanced. With a proper soundboard operator, he can get the balance just right. There's no reason he can't keep the monitor volume down for the couple of songs you want to use the mandolin for; there should be controls for that on any good board. Most bands want to monitors set too loud, anyway, as they're used to cranking away during practice at volumes that are louder than necessary. If the pickup gets a little to brittle or peaky, you can always put that one channel through a compressor to knock it down a tiny bit, but usually the solution is to keep the gain as low as possible on the pickup itself, and boost that channel slightly. It'll take a little trial and error, but once you get it, the sound for the audience will be more balanced if all the instruments are coming through one source, meaning one set of speakers.

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    I was thinking about the amount of gear he would end up packing in and out

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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by rico mando View Post
    I was thinking about the amount of gear he would end up packing in and out
    That's true. Actually, we don;t have any clue about the PA equipment. House owned or dragged from gig to gig. Watcha got, Brig?

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    That's true. Actually, we don;t have any clue about the PA equipment. House owned or dragged from gig to gig. Watcha got, Brig?
    Our 'new' vocalist will be supplying the PA, I'm not sure what make it is, but he assures me that it's a very high-quality system, with more than enough power for a rock/blues band. So at least I wont have to worry about lugging a PA around with me, but I will have my bass, amp head + 2 cabs, mandolin and my rather large accessory bag.

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Given that info I'd suggest trying it through your bass amp to see what you think. You can get surprisingly good results from unexpected sources.
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim2723 View Post
    Given that info I'd suggest trying it through your bass amp to see what you think. You can get surprisingly good results from unexpected sources.
    I've thought about that, but the problem is, when I'm playing the mandolin on the couple of songs mentioned, one of the guitarists will be playing my bass, and my amp only has one channel.

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by brig View Post
    I've thought about that, but the problem is, when I'm playing the mandolin on the couple of songs mentioned, one of the guitarists will be playing my bass, and my amp only has one channel.
    Then play through the guitarists Amp when he is on bass . you can search for a great mandolin amp that sounds good when played alone but once that drummer starts hitting the cymbals you may find that the tone you did not really like was the one that makes it through the mix . It is not just volume that is going to cut through the band but also which frequencies . I personally find magnetic pick ups tend to cut through the mix of a rock band better than peizo's generally mainly due to the frequencies .

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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    OK then, next question, and the most important of all. What's the mixing board. A good mixing board will solve a lot of problems. Power is nice, for sure, but control here might be the critical thing. Regardless, I'm still all about sound coming from single point sources (or two, as in stereo speakers), especially for smaller club gigs, otherwise it's choppy, disconnected sound from to many places with too many areas of drop-out where instruments disappear or are too loud. I'll always vote for through a single PA source., if it's really sound quality you're interested in.

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Strange, but I've had exactly the opposite of Rico's results. Actually, it's not all that strange, as things happen differently all the time in this biz. Go figure, right?

    Like Charlie, I also go for control over brute force every time.
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    I think I will try it through the PA at our next rehearsal, as we now have access to a hall for rehearsals, and although it will be empty, it will be similar in size to a lot of the venues that we will be playing at.
    I have a pre-amp/EQ, so I will have a play around and see what sort of sounds I can achieve through the PA.
    Thanks for all the advice so far.

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Well there is good and bad gear with both types of pick ups and there is rock and roll -elvis, don't step on my blue suede shoes and rock and roll - def leopard , Foolin

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    You have access to a rehearsal hall????!!! DUDE!!!

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by rico mando View Post
    Well there is good and bad gear with both types of pick ups and there is rock and roll -elvis, don't step on my blue suede shoes and rock and roll - def leopard , Foolin
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    its a very very long song Jim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    It really comes down to the stage volume, If you are competing with cranked electric solid body guitars you're gong to need a solid body magnetic p/u instrument but if stage volume can be kept to a reasonable level so you can hear yourself and not feedback I would go with a pre-amp d/i box strait to the board assuming you have a competant sound man. My last choice would be to run it through the lead players amp when he plays bass, in this case that rehersal hall time will be well used getting a piezo p/u to sound good/ acceptable through an electric guitar amp. A dedicated accoustic amp will ound better with many accoustic/electric instruments but you'll still not get a stage volume that will compete with an electric instrument. D/i box to the board with in ear monitors is best of a bad situation IMHO.
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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Well, if the O.P. wants to play Rory Gallagher's "Going To My Hometown" then why not do it like Rory, who simply played into a mic into the board into the P.A. Simpler is always better, in my experience.


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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim2723 View Post
    You have access to a rehearsal hall????!!! DUDE!!!

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    Yes, and it is free of charge too!

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    I think that with 'Copperhead Road' and 'Going to my Home Town', the rest of the band wont be playing that loud anyway, especially with 'Going to my Home Town', as the mandolin is the main instrument, with a bit of bass and kick-drum going on in the background, and it's the same with 'Copperhead Road' especially the first part of the song, and when the guitar does join in, I think we will probably use acoustic guitars amped up. So I think I should be heard ok, but I really need to know how to achieve a decent tone on the mandolin when amplified.

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    its a very very long song Jim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    but I really need to know how to achieve a decent tone on the mandolin when amplified.
    Trial and error.... If you have enough mics and the other instruments playing with you are accoustic mic them all for the mando songs. If you have to go through a guitar amp and use your shadow p/u I know I would use a d/i box and my eq ( 10 band) pedal but with an electric guitar amp it is barely acceptable in my experience. If you go strait to the board you still need a d/i or eq or some combination of the 2 and it is usually better for me , but, mics are still better. If you have a good sound man you can mix the direct to board sound with a mic and get volume out front and still have an acoustic sound. Chorusing can help take the edge off that piezo sound too.
    Jim Richmond

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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Trial and error.... If you have enough mics and the other instruments playing with you are accoustic mic them all for the mando songs. If you have to go through a guitar amp and use your shadow p/u I know I would use a d/i box and my eq ( 10 band) pedal but with an electric guitar amp it is barely acceptable in my experience. If you go strait to the board you still need a d/i or eq or some combination of the 2 and it is usually better for me , but, mics are still better. If you have a good sound man you can mix the direct to board sound with a mic and get volume out front and still have an acoustic sound. Chorusing can help take the edge off that piezo sound too.
    Thanks for the advice Jim, I will definitely try it through my pre-amp, EQ and DI, I will also try running it through my chorus pedal as well.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    The Fishman Mini Loudbox gets my vote, volume if you need it ad it sounds more like a mandoin

  25. #25

    Default Re: Amp or PA?

    I've been playing mando live in a rock band for over ten years now. With an active pickup I go directly to PA/mixing board, eq to taste from the board and add some slapback delay from the onboard fx to fill it out. With a passive pickup you either have to crank the PA channel or use a belt clip preamp for example, either could work depending on the volume of the band. I find going directly to the PA doesn't color the sound at all, and it sounds pretty darn good.

    If you're only playing it a couple of times a night, I personally wouldn't hassle with a separate amp, mic'ing it, going through another guitar players amp (I can't say I've ever heard one sound good going through an electric guitar amp), etc. KISS it for now ("Keep It Simple Stupid"), and if it takes off you could look at upgrading the mando setup experience. Most of the time people are just excited to see somebody playing a mandolin in a rock band and I swear the audience doesn't care what it sounds like.
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