Jamming vs. Being In a Band - Is there a happy medium?

[Tom Haywood]

I always wondered why the girlfriends leave and go shopping when the jam gets good. JeffD, you're my kind of jammer. Look me up if you get to Georgia. Part of the question here is how to define a jam. I go to bluegrass jams around here where everyone plays the old standards according to the formats on the recordings. One break per verse, then end it. An extra break if there is a super picker present. That's not a jam to me, but it is to most bluegrassers here. Try singing a verse then giving everybody in the circle a break and you've really lost your mind. Try jumping off the melody into a completely impromptu non-standard melody and they wonder what planet you think you are on. The problem with finding the happy medium is the dichotomy between those who want to learn it and play it as published/recorded and those who see it as a nice beginning point.

[Barry Wilson]

I am liking mandolin more and more all the time because mandolin music generally means I don't have to deal with drummers hehe.

[dubblestop]

So as a "newbie" I find that attending a jam (and staying "back" or "outside the circle") offers a way to practice chords, chops, "quiet" solos, etc. however, at the last one I attended one of the leads looked at me and signaled for me to take the lead. Unfortunately it was not a song with which I was very familiar although I managed most of the chord changes and tempo. Here is my question what is the etiquette for "declining" the lead when they look at you and you can't do it? Do you just shake your head and say "no", do you tuck tail and slip away? Advice for a newbie who wants to to learn enough to rise to the occasion (someday!).

[mandopete]

Well that is true in some cases, but not universally. I can tell you I have no ambition or hope, secret or not, of being in a band. I don't care much for performing. (I am currently in a band, and it is confirming for me what I don't like about performing. I do it from time to time because it keeps me sharp and its healthy to work that hard on the music.)

I love to jam. I live to jam. I love playing in kitchens much more than on stage. I love playing with people a lot more than playing for people.

Amen to that! This was one of my primary reasons for leaving the band situation. I loved the music and people, but the performance part became increasingly difficult. In order for us to stay at a reasonble level of performance we would need to practice more often. If we didn't we sounded terrible and that was not a good feeling for me. Add to that the issues of working with a sound system and the like and at the end of the day I said enough.

What I found I did like from a performance perspective was not dealing with people's expectations of us as performers. We played a gig once at a hardware store during an open house sort of thing. No sound system, sittting down, just like we were in the living room. Folks that stopped by really had no expectations and that made it much more like a jam.

Has anyone noticed that quite often (at least at a bluegrass festival) the band can sound better in the campground than on stage? Perhaps they are more relaxed, I don't know. I always felt our band played (and sounded) so much better than what came out on stage. I usually left our performances feeling pretty down.

[onassis]

what is the etiquette for "declining" the lead when they look at you and you can't do it? Do you just shake your head and say "no", do you tuck tail and slip away?

Usually a simple shake of the head is all you need, and they'll either look at someone else or the next guy in line will step up. IMO, no need to slink off or be embarrassed. Not everyone wants or needs to play leads. Typically, they just want to give you the chance, if you're into it.

I always felt our band played (and sounded) so much better than what came out on stage.

I hear ya! I'm feeling more and more that way. Playing in a band and performing involves so much compromise and so much lowering of expectations, that usually the best I can hope for is to feel like I survived. "Hitting it out of the park" is a rare feeling any more. The best chemistry always seems to come at odd, relaxed moments.

[TonyP]

As everybody can see, there's a million different ways of being. There's folks that live for the jam, and then there's some like myself who don't. I'm just glad jams have evolved here where everything is more democratic. Where you go 'round the circle so each person can call a tune, and then the breaks usually go 'round the circle that way too. I love it when somebody has like some vocals worked out and bring it to the jam. Around here, it's also expected that you know the original tune version so everybody can know how it goes. Not that we're going be BMBB or F&S or whomever, just a point of reference.

I guess the point is, I'm a team player. Always have been. And a band, whether it's formal, or "closed jam" is where I'm happy. Working on vocals, doing a chorus over and over slowly, working out instrumental parts, arranging, all that stuff is fun to me. So it's been short of a miracle that I've found kindred spirits through the years.

Performing has never been my thing, but I see it's need. The guys I've played with that were really good love to perform. They loose interest if we don't, as a band for them has no other reason to exist. So I've learned to roll with it. Like a good friend and pickin' buddy pointed out, everybody drops back a level or two when you go on stage. So taking on doing the sound has been a part of the performance challenge to help minimize the "damage". But it's paid off to the point where the folks I play with don't want to play out unless we do sound ourselves.

So the band thing is not for everybody as it can get very involved and it's really hard to find a group to do it the way it satisfies everybody. I'm just grateful when it works, and let everybody know I'm grateful.

[greg_tsam]

and they all want to play the banjer!

[greg_tsam]

I've played in bands, open jams and "invite only" jams and been in jams that turned into bands later. I've played in 'your worst nightmare" jams both fast and slow, loud and low but they all have merit even if it's to teach patience to the advanced and intestinal fortitude to the beginner. Get out there and try a lead when it's thrown at you. Take a chance and who cares if you crash and burn. How else are you gonna learn? I've trainwrecked with the best of them and in front of a whole lot more getting to where I'm at now. I'm not a super picker but I can go as fast as you want. Banjo's can't scare me anymore but I love a good waltz that demands tremolo doublestops across, around and down the fretboard.

Last night I went to my weekly BG jam where there is a mix of talent levels, everyone that wants a lead can get one by simply sitting in the circle. You can shake one off but shake off too many or you will be politely skipped in the future so as not to force anything on you. On and on and down the line each picker took their turn and a good time was had by all. Except me. I forgot the Golden Rule. Have fun. I brought my personal problem with me and forgot to check that baggage at the door and ended up not enjoying the music and the fellowship. A few asked if I was OK and that I looked a little down. Damn. Now I was in danger of breaking another rule and bringing everybody down. Fail. I let the distractions get to me when I usually let them slide. Like the guy that won't stop noodling over everyone else's leads including the vocals. Or the run away fiddler's trying to show all their knowledge all at once. Or the fact that we had 15 people playing and no one was watching sound levels. LOUD! and a couple of people obviously forgot their rhythm shoes because they had none.

After the jam was over and I tried to make a inconspicuous exit a new friend and good guitar player stopped me and paid me a compliment on my Breedlove mando. He liked the look and loved the sound. Said it cut through the whole crowd and was easily heard and sounded great. Made my night and got me out of my funk or at least started me in the right direction.

Whatever jam or band you play in don't forget the Golden Rule. Have fun.

[AlanN]

Greg, I found myself 'feeling your pain'. The part about the fellowship, particularly at the summer festivals I hit, is more important to me than any notes I hit or miss.

Well-said emotions.

[JeffD]

I'm just glad jams have evolved here where everything is more democratic. Where you go 'round the circle so each person can call a tune, and then the breaks usually go 'round the circle that way too. .

There is a place for jams like that.

My preference is for more of a "traffic jam" where one jumps in with the next tune and everyone follows, or if two jump in one backs off. No winners or losers, its just where and how the tune energy goes.

But the tune-around or tune-share type of jam is pretty popular too. Everyone gets a chance and feels included. Thats a good thing on the whole, but for my taste its frustrating. No momentum ever gets generated. Everything dies at the end of every tune.

Its a trade off either way, because a traffic jam jam can be intimidating to a newbie. I know it was for me.

What I do, and like to do, is to go full boar with as many tunes in a row, spontaneously chosen, until the energy just exhausts itself. Then, at that natural pause, see who hasn't participated, and ask 'em, "what'ya got". That way newbies get to experience the energy, the ecstacy, and get to experience what transcendant fun a jam can be, and also find a starting point, where they are invited to start a tune.

I don't know if it an evolution or just a difference, but thankfully both kinds of jams exist, and even co-exist to a large extent.

[mandopete]

Again, thanks to all who have participated in this thread. Somewhat therapeutic, always informative.

For me the best jams always occur with the least expectations. Big surprise, huh?. But my intention with this thread was not to discuss the various merits or pitfalls of jamming situations, but rather to see if others are seeking some sort of "middle ground" between jamming (in the moment) and being in a band (whatever the heck that is). What I take away from this discussion is the infininte variety of musical situations that come about and the way people react to them.

I'm trying to remain open-minded and in some ways perhaps re-define my involvement with music. A recent bout of tendonitis has made it even murkier. I've been pretty much on the sidelines for the past month and maybe that is what has stimulated me to broach this subject here on the cafe.

[mandopete]

The part about the fellowship, particularly at the summer festivals I hit, is more important to me than any notes I hit or miss.

Yeah, I call that "social jamming".

[TEE]

I am in two bands and play out every weekend. I also usually jam 2-3 times a week.

The best "middle ground" jam I go to at present is at a closed restaurant where 2-3 bands members are invited. It usually breaks down to the lead singers of each band with one mandolin, banjo and bass. I am usually the only mandolin player as the other guy that plays mandolin in two of the bands does not like to jam. Our bands banjo player is just as good on guitar so he switches to that. I think everyone there is in at least two bands so no one is looking to "form" another band. We play each others stuff and the regular songs but later we get into almost anything. It is a blast most of the time. We are notified by text when one is on.

[tprior]

Interesting read ...good topic..

I also see that jams are fun but can also be very frustrating for a "player"......I also do not think that an open jam is an alternative to playing in a band, which is structured and focused. There is no way a "soloing" player is going to jump into a nice melodic structure if there are a couple in the jam that cannot play the appropriate chord structure or worse, in meter...Jams are a nice place to go , be social and have some fun. Obviously some jams are better than others but as mentioned it doesn't take long to figure out what the lowest common denominator is. That's not a bad thing, it's the reality of the moment.

[Mike Snyder]

Please don't forget, folks, how lucky you are to have a jam in your area. I live in a big dead spot, no jams less than an hour and a half road time. Add the necessity of working every other weekend and I'm lucky to get in a jam a month. The warm months are better and I'm VERY grateful to the ITM/Old Time crowd loosely centered around Wichita,Ks for the monthly camp-outs. If you're getting in 2-3 jams a week and just driving across town you've got my envy.

[tprior]

Please don't forget, folks, how lucky you are to have a jam in your area. I live in a big dead spot, no jams less than an hour and a half road time. Add the necessity of working every other weekend and I'm lucky to get in a jam a month. The warm months are better and I'm VERY grateful to the ITM/Old Time crowd loosely centered around Wichita,Ks for the monthly camp-outs. If you're getting in 2-3 jams a week and just driving across town you've got my envy.

well spoken and yes, overlooked !

I happen to live in an area where there are at least two BG jams going on all the time as well as countless friends doing solo's or duo gigs where many of us can go sit with an open invitation....

t

[grassrootphilosopher]

To my mind there´s not necessarily a question of either band or jamming or happy medium.

I think that it´s a matter where your priorities lie and how you can make them work.

A band is not necessarily a homogenous thing. The proof is in the many threads about the band member that allways takes up a lot of time while tuning on stage, controversy about material, what gigs to play and which not to play etc. A band works when it has a structure.

The structure of a band has a musical side and the other side.

The other side means business. A band allways has a business side. Gig akquisition, paperwork, booking, billing, sound system etc. If one of these business matters is not taken care of nicely the band will not work well. If you are not okay with a not well working band, you´ve got to get out of it.

If the business side works well there is the musical side. I know of bands that have their business set up well but they sound terrible (to my ears). If that is the case, you don´t like it and you can not improve the band, get out of it. Adjustments to the musical side mean working hard with regards to understand how the music is put togehter and that goes for any style of music. It also means to settle on a comon level of musicianship with your fellow band mates. The music sounds bad when one or more of the band members are expected to play better than they naturally can. This partly happens because material is sought out that does not work with the individual musical abilities (too fast, too slow, too complicated etc.).

If you are in a jam situation you may be the best musician there. But you cannot expect the fellow jammers to live up to your abilities. So a jam may go down the dregs with the music being out of sync, having no timing, no dynamics, no soul, it may be too loud, the singer may be too quiet etc. Such a jam may be interesting for you only if you want to "vent" a little or if you want to try out things. In such instances I try out if I can drive a jam, push the tempo etc. unbeknown to the other jammers. Otherwise being a proficient musician such jams mostly don´t benefit you. Other jams with musicians of your own level may be interesting. Apart from just jamming you even might trade ideas about how music ought to be played. You - or they - might learn something.

The happy medium is difficult to reach. For that I think you have to know what you want. Maybe going solo for a while and giging on an irregular basis might do something. Finding people in jams that are as proficient as you are - maybe a little better - and coming together separately may give your musical ideas a fresh start. Maybe focusing on a project may help. It´s like: Next year I would like to do a Monroe Bros. project on a duo basis. Let´s find a picking partner. The songs are... I would like to play at ... etc.

The worst to me would be: You are out of a band, stuck at home, noodeling around without any idea what to do, which leaves you with a shallow feeling.

A start would be to think over what you liked about the bandsituation and what you disliked. Find out what you like about jams and what you dislike. Set a goal that you can reach and focus on reaching it. And as it has been said often: Have fun!

[Fred G]

On a good day, having a band or a great jam session is a wonderful experience; on a not so good day it is like being stuck in a room with 5 high maintenance girlfriends.....

j.

I think I have been at that jam! Hahaha...

[tree]

A band allways has a business side. Gig akquisition, paperwork, booking, billing, sound system etc. If one of these business matters is not taken care of nicely the band will not work well.

Not always - the band I'm in is not about the business side at all. We don't look for gigs, they just come to us (generally someone hears us and asks us to play for their group). Maybe 25% of our gigs are for pay, but even then individual members rarely take home any cash. Any money that is paid generally goes into a bank account that we use for band or charitable purposes. I think this unusual arrangement is one of the primary reasons that we are so happy with our situation.

We do own a sound system, but our favorite gigs are when we don't need it - maybe 50% of the time (generally in a sanctuary or fellowship hall of a small or medium sized church). Playing with no sound system really forces you to have big ears, and to focus. It's really very liberating not to have to fuss with mics or a mixer (not to mention a LOT less work before and after the gig).

We are extremely fortunate to be otherwise gainfully employed, to be friends who are comfortable with our situation, and to have the luxury of playing music for the sheer joy and the challenge involved. I honestly can't imagine a better situation to be in.

Pete, I recently had trigger finger release surgery on the middle finger of my fretting hand, which is sort of related to tendonitis. The surgery went well, but there is a lot of tightness from internal scar tissue. The surgeon told me it would be 3 months before it would be "back to normal". Three months was a couple of weeks ago, and I'm still working through the tightness. The "G chop" shape is still a challenge (as is "D" on guitar, but I don't know what else to do but keep working through it. Improvement is slow, but still seems to be happening. Good luck with your tendonitis, I hope you find a successful therapy. I found that 2 weeks of "rest" (not playing) was very, very difficult to live with.

[farmerjones]

If you've got stuff in your head that needs to come out, maybe put together a recording project. So what if it never materializes? Song writers get together day after day. Some stuff makes it, most doesn't. Music's that way. Maybe you don't have a solid idea of what you want, maybe that will develop by getting the right folks together. I've been on both sides of this. I've asked for help and i've given help for projects. I 've never felt one way or another about it's sucesses. Sure, it would be great if it went to number one, but seriously, I was just glad to play. Good Luck

[TonyP]

I had a friend say that bands are like a marriage and jams are like singles bars. That kinda fits for me in that I've seldom found a prospective person that I'd like to get together with at a jam. So I mostly go to them only when like I moved to a new town or the band I was in broke up. Still sounds familiar

So finding folks who are not into the "scene" is really tough. Most times it's been through totally unexpected places, through work friends, spouses, etc. And when I think about it the bands I've been in for the last 10yrs have never started out to be a band just a good private jam. The lead singers have come from other genre's like country and folk. That guarantee's there's going to be mix with give and take on all sides.

I've also found the minimum band for me is guitar, bass and mando and everybody sings. That covers all the bases and sounds full with the minimum of personnel. Seems like every person you add in my book is not just one more complication, it's 8 times, 10 times, whatever more complicated. That can really subtract from the fun as many times it's just too complicated to even get together on a regular basis. Once a week has also turned into a min requirement as otherwise everybody forgets and there's no progress.

So finding folks who want to get together once a week and do songs that they can't get anybody in a jam, or their band to do has turned into reason for everybody to practice on their own in order to keep up. Not with any more expectation than we just want to have a reason and a forum to play music. And if a gig comes along, cool.

Sounds so easy, but has been so hard.

[JeffD]

bands are like a marriage .

Exactly.

[mandopete]

Pete, I recently had trigger finger release surgery on the middle finger of my fretting hand, which is sort of related to tendonitis.

Hey Clark - thanks for the kind thoughts. I have been experiencing the same thing (middle finger, left hand) and have been "resting" it since a series of gigs back in December which caused the whole thing to flair up. I haven't seen a doctor yet, but suspect that will be comming soon. At least the errant drivers in my area appreciate my limitation, eh?

Yeah, the business side of being in band. That really sets the expectations and I have zero interest in that at this point in time. My hat is off to those that have found success from a business perspective as a musician, but it's strictly a hobby for me, I have a good day job thanks!

What I think would work best for me would be a recurring jam with the same group of people where you get a chance to develop something beyond just the simple jam recitation. To some degree that's what I had many years ago with the rehearsal band. I think the goal there was for players to keep their chops up between gigs and such. It was not too structured, we just played out of fake books, but since it was bebop it was not hard to follow along.

[Kbone]

My jam is about the social aspect, most of us are intermediate players w/ one adavanced player in the mix. I think getting together w/ friends of the same mind and goal really. Our goal is friends talking religion, politics, have a beer, pop, and some music in between. My advise ( for what it's worth) is to find players of the same mindset, as simple as that - good luck btw.

[mandopete]

I've also found the minimum band for me is guitar, bass and mando and everybody sings. That covers all the bases and sounds full with the minimum of personnel.

To me that's just about the maximum. I have found that I really enjoy the trio format. It just seems that from both a volume and musician interaction perspective it's the best.