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Thread: Cross picking patterns

  1. #1
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    Default Cross picking patterns

    I want to learn some new cross picking patterns on mandolin. Can you suggest sources for tab or other resources on this topic? Thanks!
    Caroline

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  2. #2
    Registered User Jordan Ramsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Hi Caroline,

    Before you delve into crosspicking, I would recommend that you have a firm grasp of alternate picking (i.e. always playing down on the down beat and up on the up beat). If not, it's like trying to study calculus before you've passed algebra. Next, make sure you understand the difference between true crosspicking and alternate picking across multiple strings. John McGann has an excellent page on his website describing the difference:

    http://www.johnmcgann.com/crosspicking.html

    If you are interested in true crosspicking on the mandolin, here are the two bibles of McReynold's style:

    Jack Tottle's "Bluegrass Mandolin"
    Andy Statman's "Bluegrass Masters: Jesse McReynolds" out of print

    If you're more interested in cross string picking (alternate picking across strings), check out:

    Mickey Cochran's "Mandolin Crosspicking Techniques", and Charlie Provenza's arrangement of Whiskey Before Breakfast in Mel Bay's "Mandolin Anthology".

    Good luck with your journey, it's just a time and effort game. If you're interested in McReynold's style breaks to tunes not included in any of these books, you should get an online lesson with me. I have an extensive collection of arrangements in this style for many standards in multiple genres. Hope this helps, take care.
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    Registered User pickloser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Mickey Cochran calls "crosspicking" exactly what some would call "cross string picking" in his work on "Crosspicking Techniques." I learned how to crosspick on guitar from a Steve Kaufman video, and what he called crosspicking would be called cross string picking by some. It's a technique I use, and if Mickey Cochran and Steve Kaufman are okay with calling it crosspicking, it's no big deal. Poh-tay'-toh, poh-tah'-toh. This is another "finger rest" vs. "pick guard" issue, which is to me no issue at all. JMO. YMMV.

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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Another vote for Mickey Cochran and his Crosspicking book. His exercises become almost Zen when I play them while watching TV.
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    Registered User Jordan Ramsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Quote Originally Posted by pickloser View Post
    It's a technique I use, and if Mickey Cochran and Steve Kaufman are okay with calling it crosspicking, it's no big deal. Poh-tay'-toh, poh-tah'-toh.
    With all due respect, Pickloser, just because some "famous" person calls it crosspicking doesn't make them or you correct. Normally, I stay out of the trivial potato/potahto discussions around here, but this is a technique that I have worked years to develop and refine, and I appreciate when people understand and acknowledge the difference. As music educators, Cochran and Kaufman have done a disservice to students by using a term that's easy and inaccurate. As McGann's page points out, you create a specific syncopation when you use real crosspicking that you will not achieve with cross string picking. You and countless others obviously don't care, so let's get back to the recommendations for Cochran's "crosspicking" book.
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Quote Originally Posted by carojester View Post
    I want to learn some new cross picking patterns on mandolin. Can you suggest sources for tab or other resources on this topic? Thanks!
    Caroline
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  7. #7
    Registered User Galileo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    I am by no means accomplished at this technique. I, however, have to agree with jramsey on this one. Incidentally, I have watched your videos jramsey....nice stuff. To my ears, there is a difference in sound/phrasing associated with cross picking versus alternating picking.

    This is no different than the difference in alternate picking and applying DUD DUD to a jig. You hear a distinct difference in these two approaches. My wife who doesn't play an instrument can hear the difference when I play a jig with "correct" DUD DUD pick strokes. She says it sounds "more Irish"...it just gives it that quintessential lilt. Downstrokes, by nature, tend to have more weight. Coupled with the “syncopation” referenced by jramsey produces the differences…again, at least to my ears.

    I think the difference that jramsey pointing out is something similar. I've seen the Mickey Cochran book and it is alternate picking approach. While a useful technique, is not the same thing as McReynolds cross-picking and does sound different. Also, as jramsey pointed out, the out of print Andy Statman book is the bible to the McReynold's approach.

    My .02

    REdwards

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    Registered User pickloser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Quote Originally Posted by jramsey View Post
    just because some "famous" person calls it crosspicking doesn't make them or you correct.
    With due respect to you and Professor McGann, and I do not use the "respect" term at all facetiously, but with real respect for both of you, that is the exact point I was trying to make. Neither you nor the Professor should insist that a certain term is the sole correct name for a technique that other respected players and teachers refer to in another way, especially based on mere assertion of what you understand to be correct. The fact that at least two respected players and teachers, who have published materials using those terms, call "crosspicking" what you call "cross string picking" is enough to at least acknowledge that opinions differ on the correct use of the term. If I recall correctly, Kaufman stated that he called it cross picking because the pick crosses over another string in a roll pattern.

    I have not made this point before on the at least half dozen times I have seen posters corrected for calling crosspicking what you seem to insist be called cross string picking. Despite your having put a lot of time and effort into perfecting the technique, it's not yours to name. Btw, it's a finger rest, unless you prefer the term pickguard.

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    Registered User Galileo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Hi Pickloser,

    What are being debated are really definitions. Specifically, there isn't agreement on the definitions. Without agreement on terms, we can't have the same conversations or understandings.

    What most guitar flatpickers and McReynolds practitioners refer to as crosspicking is a style that breaks from the more oft use technique of downstrokes on the beat and upstrokes on the "ands" in 1/8 note feel music. Somebody had to come up with a different name because the technique isn't alternating picking, but more representative of something more similar to a banjo roll. Most musicians I encounter refer to this as “Crosspicking”.

    What muddies the water is, as jramsey pointed out, there are those who publish materials on a method of alternating picking over strings, but is still alternating picking and not the method that breaks that rule, that most generally accept as crosspicking. I’ve heard others complain about this same topic, specifically somebody who bought a DVD on crosspicking only to find out it was alternating picking lesson.

    I can see why somebody like jramsey who has devoted a substantial amount of time to master a technique and style would argue for his point to differentiate these two techniques.
    Last edited by Galileo; Jan-19-2012 at 5:00pm. Reason: can't spell...

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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlemike View Post
    Another vote for Mickey Cochran and his Crosspicking book. His exercises become almost Zen when I play them while watching TV.
    Does that mean you can only crosspick at gigs if you're watching the boob tube?
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    I forgot to say in my last post that both parties are technically correct. It all falls under the umbrella description of cross picking but Jesse McReynold's is widely acknowledged and accepted for his style. So Jordan, and the rest of us, practice the Jesse McReynold's style of cross picking which is commonly referred to as simply cross picking. There are other styles of cross picking out there but if you were to use the word cross picking at a BG jam circle I think most of the mando players would assume you're talking about the JM style.

    Check out this youtube video of the late great Dave Peters demonstrating this. It starts at 8:38 but the whole video is worth watching. (Also some at the 6:00 mark.)

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  12. #12
    Registered User pickloser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Galileo, I am in agreement with you. Exactly who gets to define what a term means is, unfortunately, not a function of who deserves to define it. It does no good to insist a technique--cross string picking in certain patterns--not be called crosspicking, when many, maybe most, folks are already calling it that. And if the general dictionary test--how a substantial number of educated speakers use the term--applies here, than crosspicking means both techniques. Trying to limit the word crosspicking to being a term of art referring only to the McReynolds technique is, imo, a lost cause. (I avoid the word "forte" for similar reasons. And I see that Greg also gets my point.)

    I truly mean no disrespect to practitioners of McReynolds-style crosspicking.

    . . .at least we're not arguing about Bill.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    You can always do a search for Jessie's book they show up sometimes on the internet
    Its a great book if you can find it.
    Dan

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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Thanks for the resources and suggestions.
    My, mandolin players sure are passionate!
    cheers
    Caroline

    Music is joy.

  15. #15
    Registered User Jordan Ramsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Quote Originally Posted by pickloser View Post
    With due respect to you and Professor McGann, and I do not use the "respect" term at all facetiously, but with real respect for both of you, that is the exact point I was trying to make. Neither you nor the Professor should insist that a certain term is the sole correct name for a technique that other respected players and teachers refer to in another way, especially based on mere assertion of what you understand to be correct. The fact that at least two respected players and teachers, who have published materials using those terms, call "crosspicking" what you call "cross string picking" is enough to at least acknowledge that opinions differ on the correct use of the term. If I recall correctly, Kaufman stated that he called it cross picking because the pick crosses over another string in a roll pattern.

    I have not made this point before on the at least half dozen times I have seen posters corrected for calling crosspicking what you seem to insist be called cross string picking. Despite your having put a lot of time and effort into perfecting the technique, it's not yours to name. Btw, it's a finger rest, unless you prefer the term pickguard.
    Pickloser, I'm sorry if I came off brash in my last post. I've always appreciated your posts on here, and this is nothing personal. I'm also sorry to take a simple thread about material and turn it into a heated debate over a definition, but I gotta stand my ground when it comes to what I teach and how I define what I do. The term crosspicking was first used to describe the techniques used by both Jesse McReynolds and George Shuffler. Cross string picking happened later; it is not the same thing and requires a very different technical approach. I can play the fire out of McReynold's style crosspicking, but I am terrible at Shuffler style and alternate cross string picking, I mean beginner speed. It takes a lot of time to get good at just one of these picking patterns, and I will argue with anyone (minus Chris Thile) who says they can combine both crosspicking patterns and alternating together at a high level. You're just working against your muscle memory and momentum. They are different techniques, different muscle movements, they need different names. Crosspicking was first used to describe McReynolds/Shuffler style, they get the name. Neither I nor Prof. McGann are trying to be "crosspicking bullies" or claiming that we invented the phrase or anything,but we are both trying to define it and distinguish it from alternate picking so that we can teach people properly. When someone learns about a style, they should understand how to get a specific sound through proper technique.

    We've both made our points, I'm sure we'll just have to agree to disagree on the matter. I, also, meant no disrepect to anyone out there, just differences of opinion.
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  19. #17
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    I have heard and seen good crosspicking, from the cats who do it. It's the kind of thing that you know it when you hear it. There's a picker around here, Ted Jones. Man, does he have it down, just like Jesse (or at least as close as I've heard). He even looks like Jesse.

  20. #18
    Registered User Galileo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Carojester,

    Keep your eyes out for a copy of the Andy Statman book. When they do come up for sale they don't last long. If I recall, a few years some cafe member had created a pdf of the book and would send you copy if asked. It's a shame that it is out of print.

    REdwards

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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Mixing up cross string patterns is tough, but fun:

    I'll share a little demo of my attempts:

    http://youtu.be/drPGJMc1RC8

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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Wow Jeroen, that's a really sweet video! Got anymore you could share with me?

    Thanks again everyone.

    cheers
    Caroline

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    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Good job!
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  24. #22

    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Here is a link to Jesse on youtube,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_pV5cSAafw

    May have to copy and paste
    Dan

  25. #23

    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    Here is another where Jesse shows some more from his Homespun lessons,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aEvn...eature=related

    Dan

  26. #24

    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    comment removed
    Last edited by Werner Jaekel; Jan-21-2012 at 9:11am.

  27. #25

    Default Re: Cross picking patterns

    What are these additional notes to a lead melody called crosspicking ? licks, arpeggios, ornamentation or... ? Practising crosspicking up and down the fretboard is fine. But as soon as I want to apply it some melody, which is not bluegrass, I feel lost. What is the difference between alternate picking, crosspicking and a roll (like banjo). I want to use these things but as long as I don't know the theory behind it I am stuck to these boring exercises.

    My speed is not too bad, but needs improvement. Watching the experts I have noticed that speed is often achieved through pick action by alternate picking, not always by the left hand. As long as I apply my dudududu my speed is fairlry fluent. But when I start to incorporate crosspicking or alternate picking I stumble and stutter, loosing tempo.

    So, if I want to use these techniques ad lib, which rule or pattern is there to follow ? Or do I simply improvise ?

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