Beginner restoration project

[Ausdoerrt]

Hey all,

After reading this and that on the Cafe, I got the itch to buy myself a cheap-o modification/restoration project to try my hand at. This thread is here for posterity and basic "stupid beginner questions", hope to hear y'all's input.

So, the project is a fairly old and abused flattop mandriola (4 courses of 3 strings). Appears to be plenty old, probably pre-war. Here's the front/back/side view:



As you can see, looks like a decent build, hard to tell the top/back wood used under all the paint. Fretboard is redwood, possibly Brazilian. Fret markers abalone or MoP. Lousy wooden nut and bridge. Rusted (on the inside) tailpiece. Brass tuning machines.

Heavily "abused" with previous owner's attempts to paint/varnish. Uneven, lousy paint job. For some reason, the inside's also painted white. There's even varnish on the fretboard! Previous owner noted that the instrument was coming apart and glued back together - no visible issues with that for now.


Now for what seems like a major issue - fretboard is somewhat warped at the point where neck meets the body. Up to that point seems okay. Not sure if it's worth it to try and straighten, guessing probably not. Is is supposed to be flat/glued onto the body, or slightly raised as is?




The neck seems to be held by a single screw. No truss rod, it seems, but the neck is more or less straight. The visible tilt to the bass side seems to be due to the warped/sunk fretboard. But, when laying it down flat on the back, bass side of the headstock is actually higher than treble. Hard to tell where exactly the issue is.




Another issue that concerns me is the odd visible deterioration of the tonebars (pictured). The dots appear to be just dots, not holes, so I've ruled termites out. Maybe mold? Not sure if it's a major issue and/or if anything should be done. Comments appreciated.

If anyone's interested it seems like all the bars are perpendicular to the neck; from the outside I can see 2 bars on back and one on top.




Finally, to the minor issues. One, the tuners are rusted and a bit bent, so they are tough to turn in some places (but still hold tune pretty well). Not entirely sure if it's worth the hassle to try and restore them or just get new ones. The buttons definitely need to be replaced.




And lastly, if you look closely, the 5th fret market is actually woefully off center. Is there any way to replace it without damaging/leaving a hole in the fretboard? It'd seem from online videos I've checked that these things tend to be embedded quite deeply, so removing and flushing probably isn't an option.




So yeah, wish me luck, and advice/pointers/warnings are certainly very welcome! I hope to learn a lot! Next post will be about hopes and wants and initial progress.

[Ausdoerrt]

Here's all I want and hope to do with this project:

1. Remove all varnish/paint and redo it properly, all flamed and with a thin coat of finish
2. Replace nut and bridge
3. Install a pickup (magnetic or piezo+magnetic)
4. Have a custom tailpiece cast (for better sound as well as cosmetic detail)
5. Fix or replace the tuners; replace tuner knobs
6. Re-fret (will probably remove frets myself, but leave the fretting to a professional)
7. Give the neck a slightly more pronounced v-shape for playing comfort
8. Change headstock shape to something more interesting (either pointy a-la Sorensen AX, or classic paddle-shape)
9. Add acrylic paint decorations


Additional wants I'm not confident about:

1. Headstock and fretboard inlays (appears to be a complex task, but dang it'd be pretty!)
2. Binding and purfling (same as above)
3. Headstock overlay - will depend on how the wood under the paint looks
4. Tuning changes/8-string downgrade - this one's a tough one. 12-string has that unique sound and doesn't seem too different from 8-string in terms of playability. At the same time, the middle of the 3 strings constantly produces buzz, because the strings are so close. I'd also have no idea how to space the 12-string instrument properly.


Progress to be added when I take some photos. For now I've stripped everything that can be stripped without removing the paint. Tailpiece and tuners were held by odd-sized screws, and I'll probably need to fill the holes before I place new ones.

[Michael Lewis]

You can make this a more educational experience if you do ALL the work. You will learn much more this way, by seeing how each part relates the the others. By preparing the fingerboard surface for the frets, and installing the frets, and making the instrument play. Then you get to make the minor adjustments to refine the set up so it will play the best it can. You won't learn much by having someone else do the "difficult" parts of the work. Once you understand how these parts work you will be able to do better work. You want to do this project, just treat each step as a part of the process, and move on to the next step. Eventually it will be done and you will be playing the instrument.

Then you will be tempted to begin making a better instrument, so remember to get good tools as you need them. Good luck and enjoy the journey.

[Ausdoerrt]

Thanks for the encouragement! I'll definitely consider fretting, looks like it doesn't require (m)any special tools that won't be used elsewhere, so I might take it up. The instrument has a nice fingerboard, and it'll be interesting to work with it.

I'll probably still "outsource" non-luthier work though, like casting the tailpiece or making the pickup, to people who actually know how that stuff works.

This should be fun!

[Ausdoerrt]

Some first progress - paint removal. There's a lot of it, and the wood was probably not properly prepped/primed before painting, so much of it has sinked into the wood. Someone must've really hated the instrument Still, at least it's starting to look like an actual instrument now

Used paint remover, scraper and steel wool. Much of it came off the front, still got the back to go. Then on to the sanding to remove the rest of the paint.




Also removed the old frets - soldering iron + pliers. Some sat quite deep and gave me a bit of trouble. Result pictured before leveling.

MoP inlays were also removed. The holes turned out to be really deep - through the fingerboard and into the neck. Will probably fill with sawdust and cover up with a larger inlays on top.




Finally, tried to remove the neck, which appeared to hold on by a single screw. Unfortunately, it also seems to have been glued on, and at a slight angle to boot (fingerboard center is about 3~4mm off from the body center). Would it be worth the work/risk to try and straighten it? How would one go about that?

[vates]

This body needs more sanding to be done. The neck wood looks like mahogany to me now.

[Ausdoerrt]

This is before sanding, just paint remover. It was a very, very thick layer of paint.

The neck is also very likely to be beechwood. Pictures make it look darker than it is.

The body turned out to be all plywood, sadly, so I'll be cutting the planned investment into the project to the bare minimum and make this into my "beater" hatchet.

Still tempted to use it to try and learn binding and inlay, though.

[vates]

Well, on with a crazy paint job then!

[allenhopkins]

You may have to settle for replacing tuner buttons. Not easy to find six-on-a-side mandolin tuners.

[Ausdoerrt]

You may have to settle for replacing tuner buttons. Not easy to find six-on-a-side mandolin tuners.

Yes, I think that's what I'll do. 6-on-a-side tuners are also used on 12-string guitars, but unfortunately this here instrument is old enough to use old-standard distance between posts (~23mm vs current standard of 25 or 29/32" vs 31/32").

I may try to carve them out of bone if I find enough suitable raw material.

[Jim Garber]

Well, esp since you discovered it was plywood, I would convert it to an 8 string and just make it playable. Those mandriolas are pretty silly anyway.

[MikeEdgerton]

You may have to settle for replacing tuner buttons. Not easy to find six-on-a-side mandolin tuners.

Unless you can find identical left and right handed six on a plate guitar turners that have the same post spacing.

[Ausdoerrt]

Well, esp since you discovered it was plywood, I would convert it to an 8 string and just make it playable. Those mandriolas are pretty silly anyway.

I think silliness is part of the charm, really. Plus it was near-playable at the start anyway, but where's the fun in that

Unless you can find identical left and right handed six on a plate guitar turners that have the same post spacing.

StewMac's "Golden Age" tuners look like they'd be a fit, but are priced higher than this mando The old ones appeared to be quite workable after some WD-40, and will hopefully become even better after more intense cleaning.

[ajh]

You could take a look at individual tuners rather than "on a plate" type. I have used Grover 9NB Sta-tite Uke tuners in situations like that. Actually really nice, inexpensive tuners. You just have to watch the distance between the plate and stringhole to make sure they work. Seeing where you live...you could also find a junk guitar with decent individual tuners.

Good Luck!

[Ausdoerrt]

^ Well, I've treated them to some WD-40+toothbrush yesterday, seem to mostly work now. Will need to take off the old tuner buttons to see if it'll be reasonably easy to install new ones - if yes, I think I'll settle for this route. May try to soak in vinegar to remove more rust.


Now, I've run into an issue with removing paint, and I could use your advice.

After a good amount of sanding on the top (80 grit sandpaper and oh 2~3 hours of work), there are still spots where the paint is really deeply ingrained in the wood (see photos):




I'm getting concerned that I may end up making the soundboard too thin if I continue - may even have to go as far as removing the entire top layer of the ply before the remaining paint (and ink?) is gone. Besides, sanding has started to reveal some less promising/good-looking sections of the top.

Alternate methods I've tried were trying more paint remover (little/no effect) and trying to scratch out the paint with a sharp object (little effect + deep scratches). What would you recommend?

1. Keep sanding, all things be damned;
2. Leave as is and try to cover with dark(-er) stain - bit of a shame, as lighter stain with dark binding would also look great;
3. ...some other method I may have missed? Acetone?...


Thanks!


P.S. Sanding paint sucks!

[Jim Garber]

IMHO blond instruments look wonderful only if the wood has interesting figure. This is birch(?) plywood and rather plain. I would go with a dark stain to cover up the deeply ingrained paint.

[Ausdoerrt]

I wasn't really planning on "blond", but would want the grain to be still visible - I think that'd look better than a solid coat of paint. How dark do you think I'd have to go to find that balance? I suppose something like a dark rosewood stain (to match the fretboard and/or the locally available rosewood binding) would still work?

Also, I've been mulling over going the shellac/French Polish route for finish, and possibly adding the stain directly to that. Recommended?

[Ausdoerrt]

Update on the progress - mostly done with sanding I think. Also started to work on re-shaping the headstock. Next on to inlays and binding. Still trying to decide on the stain+binding color combinations.

Question: does wood need any special preparation before staining? Right now, the whole thing has been sanded down with P80 grit sandpaper. I've read of a technique where you sand, wet to raise the grain, sand again after 30 minutes, then stain. Or do I need to do some pore-filling first? If yes, what (type of product) should be used for that?

[soliver]

I've enjoyed reading this!... I have no direct luthier skills or experienced, but I've been a carpenter, woodworker, craftsman and artist for the last 15 years or so. I'm not sure if the same principles apply here, but I wouldn't ever apply any sort of finish to something until I had progressively sanded it up to at least 220 grit. Starting at 80 grit, then 120, 180, then 220. I've never wet sanded wood, so I can't speak to that. I can tell you though, if you still have paint in the pores and the paint stripper doesn't get it out, you might try Mineral Spirits. Its also a good idea if you have used a stripper to remove old finish, to wipe the wood down with mineral spirits to remove any excess stripper that may be in the pores. Once you apply a new finish, if there is still stripper in the pores the new finish won't take.

Good luck!

[Bill Snyder]

soliver is correct that you need to sand finer in stages at least up to 220 and many advocate sanding finer than this. Again as soliver said you need to make sure any stripper is totally removed. You do NOT need to fill the pores on this. Birch, maple and the various conifers used for tonewood have very fine pores and require no filling.

[vates]

Indeed, you need to sand it with a finer grain and remove all previous paint and paint stripper completely.
With this type of wood (plywood) you can go virtually with any primer or use none at all.


I like the headstock being reshaped! Do you plan to leave it with original 10 pegs or convert to 8? There are lots of cheap pegs and other parts @fleabay so that you won't break the bank

[Seattle]

The technique to wet to raise the grain and then sand is for water based staining only (I think). As others have mentioned, sand to 220 grit.

Most companies that sell strippers also sell a product to use after stripping to remove the stripper. I've used that but it is probably just mineral spirits as others have suggested.

If I were to do another project I think I would use dye rather than stain but my only (limited) experience is with stain.

[Ausdoerrt]

Thanks all, that's a good point indeed, the mando does still smell a bit of the paint remover, meaning it may have seeped into the grain. I'll try wiping with white spirit before sanding and staining.

I'm planning on using an alcohol-based stain if that makes any difference to the process. These are cheap and plentiful around here (locally produced). I've already tried a "walnut" stain on scrap, but it looks too greenish to my eye, so I probably won't be using that. I will probably have to experiment with mixing various stains to get the necessary effect/color. And when I get the color I like, that'd determine what color binding I use.

For the headstock, it's actually 12, not 10 pegs, and will probably stay like that. I'll probably try to give it a nicer curve - as heavily inspired by the Sorensen AX/FX models. I have decided to leave the old tuning pegs in - they have non-standard distance between posts, so I see no reason to bother with replacing them since they work fine after some basic maintenance.

The buttons will almost surely be replaced - I've already removed the one ugly plastic one. The rest may or may not be too small to sand and shape nicely. I'll be looking into making new ones from bone, and also use bone for fretboard inlays. I should go buy a cow femur or something

[Ausdoerrt]

I just wanted to follow up @soliver to say that I've tried white/mineral spirit, and it's been a great success! Not only did it remove any residue paint remover, but also helped removing more paint from the grain! (I do admit that I sanded lightly in the problem spots while the wood was wet to accelerate the process rather than go through umpteen rags). In any case, thanks a lot for the suggestion!

Meanwhile, I've been preparing bone for the nut/inlay and possibly tuner buttons. I procured a sizable cow femur, sawed off the middle section, removed the marrow, and simmered at low heat for about 2 hours. After that, I cleaned off the remaining tissue and placed the bone into a petroleum solvent bath for degreasing, where it'll probably sit for another week or two. I have a large diameter bone, which will likely be used for inlays and maybe tuner buttons, as well as a smaller bone (but just as thick) which kinda looks like a nut blank to me

Now back to experimenting with routing.