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Thread: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

  1. #1
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    I just picked up a Harmony Monterey from Craigslist. It's in real nice shape except for the tuners (a few of the shafts are bent). I'll probably replace the rosewood bridge as well. But I'm wondering about the serial numbers. Does anyone know about the serial number system for these? It is stamped onto the wood inside and it reads 5732B410. Is there any way to tell the date it was made? Thanks for any info.
    Larry Hunsberger

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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Most, but not all Harmony instruments have a date stamp, in the format "F62" (fall 1962) or "S70" (summer 1970). It is usually stamped more or less in the middle of the back. If there is no visible date stamp, probably the best guess comes from comparing it with similar examples that do have a date. It could be anywhere from '50s to early '70s.

    I would be pretty sure that the "B" in your model number is in fact a blurry "H", for Harmony. All my harmony instruments (several guitars and mandolins) have model/serial number stamp in the format "XXXXHXXXX". I know that the numerals after the H indicate the model (like 1210 or 962 or 8081). I have seen it said here that Harmonys don't have 'serial' numbers as such.
    Jeff Rohrbough
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  3. #3
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Thanks Jeff,

    After I posted this I did some searching and read the same thing. I believe you're right about the "B" being a "H". I have not been able to locate a date stamp. By the way, one of the posts I found in my search was a response by Mike Edgerton that said the "F" and "S" in the date stands for First half of the year and Second half of the year. He got that info from someone who worked for Harmony. Anyway, as I said, I can't locate a date stamp. The number I posted is inside the bass F hole. On the upper bout bass side there is a "HC" stamp that is right up against where the back and side is glued together. Any idea what this stands for?
    Larry Hunsberger

    2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
    D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
    1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
    1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
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    3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin

  4. #4
    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    My Monterey has neither a serial number nor a date stamp. The seller represented it as being from the 1940s, but I don't know how he arrived at that conclusion. He did say he had purchased it from Elderly, so maybe they knew something & maybe they can help you?
    "The paths of experimentation twist and turn through mountains of miscalculations, and often lose themselves in error and darkness!"
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Post a picture of the back of the headstock as well as the front of the entire mandolin. Some of these can be dated from the tuners (at least to a decade or so). The date stamp is at times hard to see, try shining a flashlight in though the f holes and looking at different angles. I think they used disappearing ink on some of them (or so it seems).

    The old convention was F=Fall, S-Summer. Then someone that worked for Harmony actually was interviewed and the F=First Half S=Second Half came to light. It made more sense.

    Either way pictures are the best way. The model number 5732H410 could shed some light but there are no real records available. Generally it's thought that one side of the H is the model and the other side might be a serialized number in that batch. Unfortunately that doesn't get you anything unless there are factory records and there are none that have surfaced as of yet.

  6. #6
    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Here's the photos -- I won't be able to try the flashlight til I get home from work. I did try that before but I can try harder.

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    Thanks! jc.

  7. #7
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    I'd take that to be from the 40's from the tuners. Here's a Harmony Monterey add from the mid 30's. I can date it because on the other side of the page there were Kalamazoo mandolins that could be dated from their appointments.
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  8. #8
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Thanks for your input Mike. I'm assuming you were talking about photos of my mandolin since I'm the OP. It doesn't have strings on it and I removed the finger rest to clean it. The finger rest is black plastic and the bridge is the standard rosewood. I'll probably replace it with a new bridge. The tailpiece cover was missing so I don't know if it was the cloud or the long bean shaped version. I have searched the entire inside of the body with no sign of a date stamp. Checked from all angles. The only thing I found other than the number I showed in the original post is a "HC" printed on the inside of the body on the bass side of the upper bout right on the very edge. Here's the photos.

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    Larry Hunsberger

    2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
    D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
    1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
    1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
    Ibanez PF5
    1993 Oriente HO-20 hybrid double bass
    3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin

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    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by mandobassman View Post
    Thanks for your input Mike. I'm assuming you were talking about photos of my mandolin since I'm the OP.
    I'm confused now too Larry! Sure didn't mean to jump your train.

    But while I have you -- have you had a chance to play it? If so, what are your impressions?

    thx, jc,

  10. #10
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
    I'm confused now too Larry! Sure didn't mean to jump your train.

    But while I have you -- have you had a chance to play it? If so, what are your impressions?

    thx, jc,
    No problem JC. I was assuming Mike was referring to my mandolin since he mentioned the serial# of mine in his post. Did you get a look at the ad Mike posted? Mine, based on the number inside, is the model 410 while yours more resembles the other one listed, the model 327. I have not played it yet. the strings were so old looking and rusted they almost looked original (just kidding). It wasn't tuned up when I got it and I wasn't about to try. I couldn't believe how much daylight there was under the bridge, so it looks like it was never fitted properly. I didn't have a extra set of strings so I need to order them. While I'm at it I'm going to order a new bridge and a new set of tuners. Since the tailpiece cover is missing and the remaining edges are sharp, I might order a tailpiece too. I'll probably get it in working order sometime next week. I'll give you my assessment after I play it.
    Larry Hunsberger

    2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
    D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
    1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
    1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
    Ibanez PF5
    1993 Oriente HO-20 hybrid double bass
    3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin

  11. #11
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    One other question. I just removed the tuners and measured the spacing. It appears they use the older 23.65mm post spacing. Are the Golden Age Restoration Tuners from Stew-Mac the only option for replacements? Aside from Waverly's, they are the only ones I have found.
    Larry Hunsberger

    2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
    D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
    1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
    1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
    Ibanez PF5
    1993 Oriente HO-20 hybrid double bass
    3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Yeah, I got confused too. The first pictures of Jaycat's is a 40's as far as I can tell. It looks like the second set of pics (Larry's) is a later model, maybe the 60's. Are there any date codes that anyone can see????

    The tailpiece cover was most likely a cloud, I haven't seen the bean on anything that new.

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    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Well, I looked inside as hard as I could, and found nothing except a dust bunny the size of a ping-pong ball. I wonder what the market is for 70-yr-old dust?

    I'm happy enough with the tone, but the action is a bit high as you go up the fretboard. Not sure this can be fixed just by messing with the adjustable bridge?
    "The paths of experimentation twist and turn through mountains of miscalculations, and often lose themselves in error and darkness!"
    --Leslie Daniel, "The Brain That Wouldn't Die."

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Well, if the dust was put there by Lloyd Loar it might have value, otherwise it's pretty much just dust

    Try messing with the bridge height but some of these will have some bow in the neck that might keep you from getting the action low.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    I just picked up a Harmony Monterey the stamps read as so 3561H417 and UV-S2S. Can anyone put a guesstimated year of when this mandoline was built.

  16. #16
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    That date code doesn't follow the traditional Harmony Date Coding system and shows up on mandolins that were built very late in the Harmony Company history just before the company closed. I'm sure that someone will pop in with the exact date it was used. Post a picture of the front and back.

    Past discussions:

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...tery-mandolins
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    1945 Harmony Monterey
    Hello everyone, I recently purchased a Harmony Monterey guitar and have some questions about it for anyone who might know some history on these guitars. The ink stamp inside, S 45 means it was made in the second half of the year and Harmony guitar company has verified that from the pictures I sent them but the model number doesn’t match what anyone thinks it is. It is stamped, H996 but Harmony didn’t make a H996 model. They told me it was probably a H1456 model. I contacted Gruhn guitar in Nashville,Tn with lots of pictures of the guitar and ink stamps and they told me they think it is a H 950 model. Has anyone else had this problem or heard of this happening before ? I would really like to know why my Harmony Monterey has a model number stamped inside that they never built ?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    A 5 second Google search shows several H996 guitars, many for sale, FWIW.
    Last edited by Jeff Mando; Mar-01-2023 at 11:10pm.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    H996 as already mentioned is a Harmony Monterey. However, code number discrepancies with Harmony is common and there is a simple reason-they stamped the body up for a certain model but on the day, there might be shortages for bodies for another model so bodies were grabbed that were originally meant to be finished as a different model. On a minor issue, many do not agree with the meaning of the F and S and the doyen of the Vintage Original US Made Chicago Harmony Guitars Facebook page is, of the opinion, looking at how the guitars appeared and when in catalogues, that S really means spring and F means Fall. Here's an H996 Monterey: https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...y-archtop.html

  20. #20
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Sorry not buying the S and F as a season. The information of First and Second half of the year was from a former Harmony employee and Summer and Fall means they didn't manufacture anything in the winter? Why wouldn't S mean Spring? We all believed that in the old days, I don't buy it now.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    I think most people agree that the stamp indicates the year, regardless of when during that year, which should be close enough for most purposes. I will say the F and S is a curious thing.

    I think it is a very human thing for us to want to figure out the codes of manufacturing, if such a system exists.

    Another unrelated story I've often heard is that prior to Fender stamping the neck dates on guitars, employees dated and initialed the neck heel, usually with a dull pencil. This continued for years until someone took theirs apart and it said something to the effect of "what the H*%# are you looking in here for?" Or maybe even something more rude. Soon after, the stamped heel numbers started. Not sure if it is merely urban legend or not, but certainly gave me a good chuckle.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    We had the S and F discourse a while back and you mentioned the Sears catalogues were Spring and Fall and the guy at the Facebook page has documented this- which seems to follow this explanation rather than the "first" and "second" half suggestion that was a more recent but possible explanation which was mentioned by the late Francois Demont who ran the Harmony Database, because it was stated by a factory employee. The guy at the FB page probably knows more about Harmony than anybody else, so his interest in this debate comes from some extensive knowledge, so I tend to go with his knowledge on the subject while I have seen information myself that backs up his assertion, although it is not a very important thing. The Cowboy Guitars book by Steve Evans from 2002 has all the date stamp variations and other Harmony lore and is a great source of detail and certainly helps identify Harmony, Kay, Regal and Richter parlour guitars which are often very similar.

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  24. #23
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    We had the S and F discourse a while back and you mentioned the Sears catalogues were Spring and Fall and the guy at the Facebook page has documented this- which seems to follow this explanation rather than the "first" and "second" half suggestion that was a more recent but possible explanation which was mentioned by the late Francois Demont who ran the Harmony Database, because it was stated by a factory employee. The guy at the FB page probably knows more about Harmony than anybody else, so his interest in this debate comes from some extensive knowledge, so I tend to go with his knowledge on the subject while I have seen information myself that backs up his assertion, although it is not a very important thing. The Cowboy Guitars book by Steve Evans from 2002 has all the date stamp variations and other Harmony lore and is a great source of detail and certainly helps identify Harmony, Kay, Regal and Richter parlour guitars which are often very similar.
    And again, we all believed that back in the day before someone actually got that information from a former employee. I'm going with that. The first and second half actually corresponds with the way many American factories operated. Around June/July they would close for a few weeks for retooling, maintenance and such and that's when people got to go on vacation (everybody but the maintenance crews). I was buying these things new in the 60's. Nobody ever even looked back then. There was never a Summer buying season for guitars. If they had a Fall catalog they probably would have called it a Christmas catalog because there was a buying season associated with that. Most large retailers were buying their Christmas stock in August and September. As much as someone wants this to be true I'm still going with the word of someone that was there.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  25. #24
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    I think most people agree that the stamp indicates the year, regardless of when during that year, which should be close enough for most purposes...
    Except there were exceptions to that at some point as well. There is at least one "Date Code" that challenges that. Unfortunately Harmony didn't leave a whole bunch of records.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  26. #25

    Default Re: Harmony Monterey serial numbers

    Steve Evans in his book states that F32 is the first date stamp. If he is correct- and he's a spring/fall man, then there is no S32 date stamp out there. Of course, if someone has an S32 date stamp then it must be first and second. As I have written before, you can see evolution, such as the introduction of new tuners and tailpieces etc which seem to back the spring/fall argument- otherwise, time would be moving backwards. It is not an important issue but I have seen it become a little heated, elsewhere! My latest Harmony purchase which is in a Sears, Roebuck catalogue but I cannot recall the date is from about 1933, and as luck would have it, it has no label or date stamp- although they were sometimes on the label. The good news, is it plays well- great neck with no cracks in the board, no warping of the top and the crack on the back which was also pulling away a bit, were an easy fix. It came with a cheapo canvas case in great order- that's a rarity! Here's an eBay auction photo of it.

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