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Thread: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    I have experienced all these problems. Losing jobs in bars so fat cats can make more money. This is why I have no problem downloading free tunes at sites and coping CDs and dvds

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    I think car dealers make too much money so I don't have any problem stealing their cars. I think grocery stores make too much money so I don't have any problem stealing their fruit. You do understand what you're saying right? It's ok to steal because you think someone is making too much money. If someone thinks you make too much money is it ok for them to steal your mandolin? Think about what you're saying here. You're justification for theft is a little loose.

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by montana View Post
    I have experienced all these problems. Losing jobs in bars so fat cats can make more money. This is why I have no problem downloading free tunes at sites and copying CDs and dvds
    Were you a songwriter -- not a "fat cat," but say just bumping along, scuffling for jobs, maybe selling a couple thousand CD's or downloads -- and you found someone had recorded one of your songs on their own CD, without attribution or payment, and was selling quite a few of them, would you feel the same? If you took a photo, and it was used in a book or magazine without crediting or paying you, would you just say, "Hey, art should be free"?

    Check out this vid:



    The song, Ruby's Knishes, was written by Bonnie Abrams, and performed by Bonnie, Glenna Chance, and me as Love & Knishes. Someone took the MP3 off my website and used it without attribution or notification. We only found out because someone viewed the vid and told us. Now, Bonnie neglected to copyright Ruby's Knishes, and the poster has subsequently attributed the song and offered to take it down if we object. No real harm, I guess.

    But should we be glad that Bonnie's song got widespread distribution on YouTube? Should we be PO'ed that no effort was made to find out who wrote it, give proper credit, get permission? What should our attitude be toward unapproved and uncompensated use of Bonnie's intellectual property? Gratitude? Righteous wrath?

    Questions that aren't always that easy to answer.

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  4. #54
    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    If someone thinks you make too much money is it ok for them to steal your mandolin? Think about what you're saying here.
    If they can find a way of downloading a virtual copy of my mandolin which leaves mines still intact, then they're more than welcome to it.

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    Registered User Peter LaMorte's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Mike,
    We are not advocating stealing, we are simply playing and singing a song for god's sake. All this does is kill playing live music. If someone is playing and not making money from your song, as in jams, why should there be a transfer of money. It's all about the lawyers and finding a new source of revenue.

  6. #56

    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    It's not a new source of revenue,it's been around a long time and is really the only way a song writer can make money, collections from royalties. People have been singing around the campfire or backporch forever and I have never heard of ASCAP showing up and asking for a payment. I know of bars that host jams and the jams are popular. The bar is making money on those nights(and often on what would be a slow night) and getting the musicians for not only free, the musicians are paying for drinks . ASCAP straight up wants paid if you have music in your establishment. It's been that way for as long as I can remember. If they have stepped up collections and are rounding up the stragglers so be it, if someone has to pay then it's only fair that everyone pays. If they are raising the rates beyond a reasonable inflationary bump then it will probably have an effect on musicians if those fees are a deciding factor as to why a venue would quit having music in their establishments. It would be a stupid model for ASCAP to establish, it would hurt them in the end to raise fees to such an extent that clubs couldn't afford them. If anyone knows what kind of fee schedule ASCAP is presently using I'd be curious to know. What is it costing clubs and bars and coffee houses to host live music?

  7. #57
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter LaMorte View Post
    Mike,
    We are not advocating stealing, we are simply playing and singing a song for god's sake. All this does is kill playing live music. If someone is playing and not making money from your song, as in jams, why should there be a transfer of money. It's all about the lawyers and finding a new source of revenue.
    If you read the message I was responding to that's not what it said. He was saying he didn't feel bad about stealing because he thought the fat cats were making too much money. If you were selling a CD and I thought you were charging too much so I made a dozen copies and gave them away to your fans thus taking revenue from you, that would be ok with you? I don't think so but it's ok for the guy that posted that because he's tired of the fat cats making too much. Theft is theft. You want to copy CD's and trade them illegally feel free, just don't try to justify it because you really can't.

  8. #58

    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Now, Bonnie neglected to copyright Ruby's Knishes
    Nope. It was copyrighted immediately upon having been fixed in a tangible medium (at least assuming US jurisdiction).
    If the application to register the copyright had been filed before the work was unlawfully used, then the author would have had a full array of remedies available (largely, ability to recover attorneys fees). Regardless, in order to act against infringement, an application must be filed (not necessarily registration received from USPTO) before seeking remedies in court.

    Allowing copyright violation to continue can result in harm to the author's rights, such as loss of the ability to stop violation, and--despite seeking legal advice, judged to have been wrong but nonetheless followed despite warning--loss of the copyright itself. (See, e.g., the Babette Ory v. Country Joe McDonald litigation results in federal district and appellate courts, bankruptcy court, and CA state court.)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    If you were selling a CD and I thought you were charging too much so I made a dozen copies and gave them away to your fans thus taking revenue from you, that would be ok with you? I don't think so but it's ok for the guy that posted that because he's tired of the fat cats making too much. Theft is theft. You want to copy CD's and trade them illegally feel free, just don't try to justify it because you really can't.
    Some courts are beginning to recognize that "theft is theft" doesn't really apply as a simple assertion. Copying a copyrighted work is not "theft" of the work itself. It is a wrongful violation of one or more rights included in "copyright," but bare claims about loss of revenues might be regarded as not necessarily self-evident; given evidence, for example, that legitimate sales do result from (and despite) unlawful electronic distribution. (Such difficulties in establishing damages through introduction of competent, non-speculative evidence is another important benefit from copyright registration before infringement occurs: availability of statutory damages.)

  9. #59
    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    If you read the message I was responding to that's not what it said. He was saying he didn't feel bad about stealing because he thought the fat cats were making too much money.
    He said he didn't feel bad about downloading and copying, it was you who said it was stealing. Not trying to argue that it is or isn't,or that it's wrong or right, just pointing out that he (along with in my experience a far larger percentage of people than it would appear from here) may no consider copying or downloading as stealing.

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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by neil argonaut View Post
    He said he didn't feel bad about downloading and copying, it was you who said it was stealing. Not trying to argue that it is or isn't,or that it's wrong or right, just pointing out that he (along with in my experience a far larger percentage of people than it would appear from here) may no consider copying or downloading as stealing.
    So, if I don't consider taking your mandolin stealing it isn't. Don't leave it laying around. You're not making sense. Look, again, if you want to copy disks and download music have at it. Just don't try to justify your actions like this, it doesn't work. It's still theft. if you choose to steal that's your choice but don't think it's anything else. Saying it's ok because you don't consider it stealing doesn't make it anything other than it is.

  11. #61

    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    It does take an admirable degree of chutzpah to present ripping off recordings from fellow musicians as an morally superior act of civil disobedience. As opposed to admitting you're doing it because a) you're too cheap to pay for what you want and b) you can get away with it.

    It's part b) that's at the root of this whole thread. In the past, many establishments that feature live music were doing so without paying for the performance rights that the law accords to songwriters. Now that a large number of them have been called on it the whining commences because something you used to be able to get away with easily is harder to get away with now.

    It's like the guy who gets a ticket for driving 82 in a 65 zone complaining "I always drive over 80 and you've never given me a ticket before". That argument doesn't carry a whole lot of weight and not having been ticketed before certainly doesn't give that guy some kind of moral high ground. I guess some people's response would be go find a road with no cops and drive 90 just to show that they can!
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    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    So, if I don't consider taking your mandolin stealing it isn't. Don't leave it laying around. You're not making sense. Look, again, if you want to copy disks and download music have at it. Just don't try to justify your actions like this, it doesn't work. It's still theft. if you choose to steal that's your choice but don't think it's anything else. Saying it's ok because you don't consider it stealing doesn't make it anything other than it is.
    I wasn't saying that he wasn't stealing because he didn't call it that, I was merely pointing out that it was you, not him, who called it stealing. And again, I'm not trying to say it's right or wrong, just that it would be foolish not to recognise that millions of people all over the world don't seem to have any moral problem with it. Whether this makes the world a better or worse place, or whether it makes these people evil or morally flawed or worse people than you is up to you to decide.
    And if you find my mandolin lying around and manage to make a copy of it, go ahead, I don't mind.

  13. #63

    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    The vast majority of people in the world, at least according to my experience, have a moral compass that is firmly oriented on reward and punishment. When the possibility of punishment is effectively zero (as for an individual downloading rather than paying for music) the reward can be miniscule and they'll still do whatever it is.

    Pay for music? Don't pay for music? If nobody can stop you from not-paying then where's the harm? Of course if roped into a conversation about their behavior they will always dress it up in what they feel is morally superior justification ("fat cats" or what "everybody does it" or what have you). But they are doing it because they are cheap and can get away with it. The rest is just blah-blah-blah. Rats in a Skinner box, we are.
    The first man who whistled
    thought he had a wren in his mouth.
    He went around all day
    with his lips puckered,
    afraid to swallow.

    --"The First" by Wendell Berry

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    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Yes, I'd tend to agree with that, that whether it's right or wrong, folk will do it because they can. I'd say this also goes for those rightly or wrongly trying to get money from folk for pieces of copyrighted music.
    Last edited by neil argonaut; Dec-06-2011 at 11:37am. Reason: posted before finished

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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by neil argonaut View Post
    I wasn't saying that he wasn't stealing because he didn't call it that, I was merely pointing out that it was you, not him, who called it stealing.
    So, it was stealing even though he didn't call it that?

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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    So, it was stealing even though he didn't call it that?
    It was doing something that some folk consider stealing and some don't.

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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    And some folks don't go out of their way to broadcast that they're doing it!
    "The paths of experimentation twist and turn through mountains of miscalculations, and often lose themselves in error and darkness!"
    --Leslie Daniel, "The Brain That Wouldn't Die."

    Some tunes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa1...SV2qtug/videos

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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    I would like to know how ASCAP/BMI pays out money to the writers who are supposed to get these royalties? If a person has one song played in a month and another one has his played 200 times how do they know this with live bands...Or do they just split all of the money between ALL writers....It isn`t clear to me at all....

    Willie

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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    The first man who whistled
    thought he had a wren in his mouth.
    He went around all day
    with his lips puckered,
    afraid to swallow.

    --"The First" by Wendell Berry

    Brent,
    So the fellow that thought he had a wren in his mouth, Did he have to pay the wren royalties.

  20. #70
    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    I would like to know how ASCAP/BMI pays out money to the writers who are supposed to get these royalties? If a person has one song played in a month and another one has his played 200 times how do they know this with live bands...Or do they just split all of the money between ALL writers....It isn`t clear to me at all....

    Willie
    Don't quote me on this, but i'm sure someone on one of these threads said it was split on the basis of radio play, I suppose with the idea being that this will be roughly similar in proportion to live covers but much easier to monitor due to playlists etc, but this means that a genre like bluegrass which might have a far higher proportion of tunes being played in live sessions than on the radio, would inevitably lose out.

  21. #71
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by neil argonaut View Post
    ...someone on one of these threads said it was split on the basis of radio play, I suppose with the idea being that this will be roughly similar in proportion to live covers but much easier to monitor due to playlists...
    Apparently ASCAP uses an outfit called Mediaguide to monitor radio, TV, and internet broadcast playlists. Don't know how they monitor "authorized" downloads (e.g. iTunes), which are considered "mechanical reproduction" rather than "performance," and thus command a lower royalty rate.
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    AFAIK no copy right on chord changes, so I suppose like Charlie Parker, wrote his own melody line
    over the chord sequence of popular songs. and got a CYA, in the process.

    OK Byrd is off topic on a BG thread.. sorry..
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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    It is very frustrating. I don't know of recent developments, but back in the 80s I ran a coffeehouse. We were contacted by ASCAP/BMI (both separately or both in one phone call, I forget) that we needed to pay a fee in order to play owned tunes. We booked a lot of singer/song writers in those days, and all the performers played for pass the hat. We also had open mike nights etc. Most of the time the songs sung were originals, but occationally a performer might do something owned. ASCAP had not found that we had, or hadn't, in fact they had never been to or heard of our coffeehouse. Their point was that we might, and to cover ourselves we needed to pay them a fee and, if I remember correctly, a past fee for all the years we had been open before that point, and then they would gives us a door sticker, a certificate suitable for framing, and leave us alone.

    I tried various ideas, like could we leave it up to the responsibility of the performer, could we monitor ourselves, keep a log, and dutifully pay for any owned tunes that were played, could we record every performance and send it to them and have them bill us for any tunes played, could we post a signed notifying everyone that it was coffeehouse policy not to allow performers to play tunes they do not own, could I... No, no, no. They were adamant that they wanted a yearly fee, and did not want to come hear our performances, or see the size of our operation and this was the amount we owed and this was our yearly fee.

    I forget how much they wanted, but it was a lot to our tiny venue. I told them that much was impossible. So they asked us how much we could pay. !!??!!

    Now Mike I am 100% behind you, I believe someone that creates a piece of music should be paid for it, and unauthorized copying and desemination is theft. At the same time, there was something of the protection racket going on here, where ASCAP/BMI would agree to leave us alone if we paid them, but if not, we could get into trouble if an owned tune snuck through.

    There had to, (has to?) be a better way.
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  24. #74

    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    I forget how much they wanted, but it was a lot to our tiny venue. I told them that much was impossible. So they asked us how much we could pay. !!??!!

    Now Mike I am 100% behind you, I believe someone that creates a piece of music should be paid for it, and unauthorized copying and desemination is theft. At the same time, there was something of the protection racket going on here, where ASCAP/BMI would agree to leave us alone if we paid them, but if not, we could get into trouble if an owned tune snuck through.

    There had to, (has to?) be a better way.[/QUOTE]

    So what happened? Did you pay,if not what happened after that? ASCAP has an astonishing record for getting judgments ruled in their favor. I think that if they actually investigate and they go after some business that they are pretty likely to win. They probably contact any business that comes into their radar but I wonder how often they go the next big step for some very small venue that does not pay.

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    Default Re: NASCAP charging for bluegrass jams!?

    Quote Originally Posted by barney 59 View Post
    So what happened? Did you pay,if not what happened after that? ASCAP has an astonishing record for getting judgments ruled in their favor. I think that if they actually investigate and they go after some business that they are pretty likely to win. They probably contact any business that comes into their radar but I wonder how often they go the next big step for some very small venue that does not pay.
    Well we didn't pay, didn't agree to anything. We took the chance. They called back every six months or so, and as I remember threatened all kinds of things. I think the biggest risk we ran was that if someone sang Puff the Magic Dragon or something we could end up owing on that and perhaps on some negotiated estimate of past performances. Scary stuff. And what was more scary was that we who ran the coffeehouse could be personally liable. Other coffeehouses not much bigger than ours in neighboring towns got scared and caved in and bought ASCAP protection, and one coffeehouse went broke trying to keep up the payments, another applied for United Way money and other grant money to make ends meet.

    Within a couple of years the coffeehouse died anyway, nothing to do with this issue, it was just that the bohemian coffeehouse went out of style for a few years as the swanky coffeehouse came into being.

    I don't like paying "just in case". It should be based on something. Radio stations keep logs (or they used to), so allow us to keep a log and send in a few bucks now and again based on the log book. And if you want, audit our log book every so often. But to just assign a fee, and then when it was too high ask us what we could afford? Thats just not the right way to do business.

    Again, I have no argument that the owners of the music are due thier money. I personally think the performer should be responsible for that, just as they are responsible for the owned tunes they cover on their CD. But OK, someone says the venue is responsible - then lets come up with something traceable to reality, something that makes sense.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
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