that OT sound

[Pete Summers]

It always amazes me how often I feel encouraged to repeat the old saw (from Fats Waller or Duke Ellington, or someone else) that "it ain't what you play, it's the way that you plays it" -- sometimes paraphrased (less picturesque, I think) as it "ain't the arrow, it's the indian."

Old-time, like Bluegrass, swing, ragtime, etc, is a style. If you get the style down it can be good on a cigar box mandolin or a 100,000 dollar Loar. The music is the thing. Use what you've got.

Personally, I like the clipped, twangy sound of an old pancake or other flat top mandolin for ragtime and old-time, but I often play both on my A style F hole just as well. As others have pointed out, volume is important in large jam settings, less so in small groups with only two or three instruments, or when playing alone. I don't subscribe to the theory that it's necessary to have a different mandolin for every style. On the other hand, that is a good excuse for MAS.

[AKmusic]

A focused discussion, that stays on topic, and remains civil.

...such idealism.

So, maybe a bit more of my reasoning will help the discussion move along. I have "beaters" (a few, other than my A2), and though we could easily point to bigger "cannons" by comparison - I also have a LM700 - and it can be heard above the crowd. And I like the 700 well enough that if The Loar made an oval hole A style, I'd probably get one just based on my satisfaction with the 700.

So, why am I looking? MAS is telling me that there is a mandolin out there that will deliver that deeper growl without loosing it's place or presense in a group of other instruments.

And - in my mind - I know that the Collings MT is a "hoss". But the f holes don't deliver the growl that most oval holes I've heard will produce at some level. So, based on that understanding of the MT - I'm wondering if the MTO oval hole Collings will get closer to what I want. Or is there another that would do an even better job (based on my description).

Sorry, I kind of always thought the oval for OT was pretty much a given. But certainly Kaleb is a very strong argument to the contrary.

[catmandu2]

I am not going to categorize home made instruments and self made or self improved instruments as rubbish. Folks that have done this don't consider their instruments rubbish, and the music they make and have made was not limited by lack of factory or luthier made instruments.

Rubbish implies stuff we would throw out, garbage, not qualified to be a possession - and that just wasn't, and isn't the case.

One man's rubbish is another's treasure..

(some of my modest but prized instrument possessions, have been regarded as more or less "rubbish" by others--and are certainly modest by comparison to what's available...doesn't stop me from valuing them. you should see my car...)

[DrEugeneStrickland]

The ultimate changes in the design of the fiddle(violin) and the banjo were part of the process of making both instruments easier for use in classical music not country music.
I think the concept of cheap electric instruments being limited and primitive and therefore yielding imaginative results does not cross over to string band music ... many of the musicians who recorded Old Time and Country Blues music on 78 RPM discs who were rediscovered during the folk music revival hit the festival and concert circuit playing much better and more functional instruments then they originally recorded with,these modern instruments could be tuned and sounded better.

[AKmusic]

It always amazes me how often I feel encouraged to repeat the old saw (from Fats Waller or Duke Ellington, or someone else) that "it ain't what you play, it's the way that you plays it" -- sometimes paraphrased (less picturesque, I think) as it "ain't the arrow, it's the indian."

Old-time, like Bluegrass, swing, ragtime, etc, is a style. If you get the style down it can be good on a cigar box mandolin or a 100,000 dollar Loar. The music is the thing. Use what you've got.

Personally, I like the clipped, twangy sound of an old pancake or other flat top mandolin for ragtime and old-time, but I often play both on my A style F hole just as well. As others have pointed out, volume is important in large jam settings, less so in small groups with only two or three instruments, or when playing alone. I don't subscribe to the theory that it's necessary to have a different mandolin for every style. On the other hand, that is a good excuse for MAS.

You make a good point. And there is truth in what you say, but at the same time - that truth really becomes meaningless at some point when things get put into context. Would you take a ski-boat out on the open seas to go deep sea fishing? Why not, its a boat and the fish don't care? What about taking an Electro-glide through the woods or desert - down dirt trails across creeks? Why not? The trails don't care.

And so it goes, let's bring our electric 12 string guitars to the OT jam next week - I mean come on - the music is the thing.

You use what you've got when you don't have a choice and you live with the consequences. But when you have a choice, most would like their blues to sound like blues and old time to sound more like - well, OT than blues or heavy metal.

And you can say what you want to but you will never get your music to sound the same on a cigar instrument as you would on an vintage Loar. You may be able to play through the song as well on one verses the other (given they are both set up to be played) - but I bet I know what the "contest" would yield when asked: "Which produced the best music?" What do you think?

[Cary Fagan]

First, observation. In my talking to and listening to accomplished ot mandolin players, I'd say that 3 or 4 out of 5 play vintage oval hole gibsons. The others play F-hole instruments. Some have both. On recordings you'll also hear all manner of vintage mandolins, including flat tops and of course banjo mandolins (esp. on rags and such).

At an ot camp I went to, 5 out of the 7 mando students had Eastman oval holes. Makes sense since they are the most reasonably priced new instruments that look and sound like vintage Gibsons (no, the sound isn't the same, I know). The instructor had a Gibby at home bought brought, of all things, a Rigel.

Now my opinion. Like most, I believe it's what you have and what you like. There's a very good player at the ot jam in town who prefers a high-end luthier built A5 to the nice Gibson that she has. Personally, I like the sound of either a Gibson or some other vintage mando such as an old Stradolin--just sounds more old timey to my ears. But a modern instrument doesn't have the issues that an old one might. And of course, the player is in the end more important than the instrument. Just watch Mike Compton play Squirrel Hunters on an F5 on youtube.

[Pete Summers]

You make a good point. And there is truth in what you say, but at the same time - that truth really becomes meaningless at some point when things get put into context. Would you take a ski-boat out on the open seas to go deep sea fishing? Why not, its a boat and the fish don't care? What about taking an Electro-glide through the woods or desert - down dirt trails across creeks? Why not? The trails don't care.

And so it goes, let's bring our electric 12 string guitars to the OT jam next week - I mean come on - the music is the thing.

You use what you've got when you don't have a choice and you live with the consequences. But when you have a choice, most would like their blues to sound like blues and old time to sound more like - well, OT than blues or heavy metal.

And you can say what you want to but you will never get your music to sound the same on a cigar instrument as you would on an vintage Loar. You may be able to play through the song as well on one verses the other (given they are both set up to be played) - but I bet I know what the "contest" would yield when asked: "Which produced the best music?" What do you think?

I get your point, but I wasn't suggesting you bring, say a trombone, to an old time fiddle jam (trombones are instruments too, after all). That would be the wrong tool for that purpose, as would a ski boat for deep sea fishing. But we were discussing which mandolin is best for old time music. All mandolins can play all types of music, was my point, and I think most would agree. What makes the music good has less to do with the quality of the mandolin than it does the quality of the musician (and the ear of the listener).

What I think is this: the best music will be played by the best musician. So I know David Grisman will make better music playing a cigar box mandolin than I will playing a Loar. I doubt there would be much disagreement about that.

And sometimes, IMO, the less quality instrument may be actually sound better (better, of course, being entirely a matter of opinion) for certain styles, or at least more "authentic". Scott Joplin rags sound great on a Steinway Concert Grand, no doubt, but Joplin himself often played and wrote his music on beat up, twangy barroom uprights, as did most old time ragtime players. So if you wanted to sound like an early, old time ragtimer, the upright will do the job as well as the Steinway, maybe better. And many a great Delta blues player made wonderful music on three stringed cigar box guitars and a broken bottleneck.

My point being, musical content and expression are far more important than hair-splitting opinions on tone of the instrument.

[AKmusic]

And I got your point Pete. Again, there is truth in what you said, it just doesn't address the issues I'm raising. This is not a matter of my "need" - it is a matter of my "want" or "desire" - that's why I've been saying MAS is telling me "so and so".

If - for whatever reason - I was to discover that I could not buy another instrument, I would be very content - I have everything I need in order to play music. I'm blessed to have some nice toys. However, I am in a fortunate position of being able to shop for something more - something that I think I would like to have.

And, I am of the opinion that the musical content any person might want to express and the way they might want to express it can be as much about the instrument they use as it is the skills they have to play them. And that was my point.

I'm asking for opinions - not about my needs - but about what I think I might want to get.

[Pete Summers]

I understand. I should have made clear that I meant to address my comments to the general idea of the thread title (that OT sound), and to some of the ensuing discussion, rather than to your request for advice about buying a mandolin.

I have absolutely no advice to anyone about which mandolin to get. If I had the funds, I'd have a room full of them. As it is, I have only 2, one junk and one fairly good, but I enjoy them both, and oddly, find the "junk" one just as much fun.

[AKmusic]

Ahh, you bring up another interesting point... what about the general idea of "that OT sound"? This is at the heart of my objective, and it is directly related to my comment: "And, I am of the opinion that the musical content any person might want to express and the way they might want to express it can be as much about the instrument they use as it is the skills they have to play them."

It isn't that I can't play OT music on my F style - or even on my A2. I can, but in my mind there is a sort of "stero-typical" sound that I associate with OT. And - if I can play OT music well on one type, how much more would "I" (as in me) enjoy playing it with an instrument that scratches my itch (as I said in the beginning).

Caleb Klauder and Mike Compton are very good arguments for using an f style with f holes. And yet, I'm wondering if their sound would have any more OT appeal if they played with an oval hole A style. Just wondering... My opinion? Yes, the tone would be different - while the playing style would still be the same.

But, maybe I'm just trying to talk myself into a nice Colllings MTO and looking for ways to justify the purchase.

[Scott Holt]

I am enjoying this lively discussion. However I feel the OP wants someone to say "it's OK just buy a MTO". So I am saying it, go buy the Collings and have some fun!

[DrEugeneStrickland]

Collings; Loud,stays in tune,decent tone .... good resale value... buy it and enjoy!!

[AKmusic]

I am enjoying this lively discussion. However I feel the OP wants someone to say "it's OK just buy a MTO". So I am saying it, go buy the Collings and have some fun!

...a wise man with a very keen sense of perception. Now, you will be my friend for life, if you will just have a few words with my wife on this matter.

Actually, she is very encouraging, and (did I mention?) I'm a very blessed individual.

really - what I'm asking is, would there be a better choice? what and why? and what are the chances of finding what I have described in an f hole?

[chasray]

Hurry and buy that Collings oval or f hole. Life is short and time is a wastin'

[fatt-dad]

Here's the mandolin I use quite often for old-time music. I have an a5 too, but seem to use this most often.

[SincereCorgi]

Hurry and buy that Collings oval or f hole. Life is short and time is a wastin'

I second that- if you can afford it, buy an MT-O, man. Every one I've played has been a great instrument.

[JeffD]

One man's rubbish is another's treasure....)

Well maybe its semantics. If you substitute the word "modest" I can't disagree. Its just that "rubbish" is a pajorative term inapporpriately applied to instruments made with as much care and skill and quality as the makers had available. There is no eschewing first rate luthier quality in order to sound better.

[wundo]

"Collings; Loud,stays in tune,decent tone .... good resale value... buy it and enjoy!! "


You didn't mention price. One could get a Gibson teens A4 for $1000 less than a new Collings.

with a much better old time sound. imho

[DrEugeneStrickland]

"Collings; Loud,stays in tune,decent tone .... good resale value... buy it and enjoy!! "


You didn't mention price. One could get a Gibson teens A4 for $1000 less than a new Collings.

with a much better old time sound. imho

Indeed!

[allenhopkins]

I've been playing my Eastman DGM-2, the Bacon clone, at some OT and Celtic jams, and it works pretty well there. Oval hole, carved top, nicely made. Not saying it would be better than a Collings or an old Gibson A, just that it seems pretty well-suited...