fretting hand position?

[MinkBrookRambler]

Hi, all. I'm writing with a question about proper fretting hand position.

I've been playing mandolin--my first instrument of any sort--for a year or so, and recently I've been trying to get better at having my fretting hand's index finger touching the edge of the fretboard just beyond the base of the finger and keeping my thumb loosely on the other side of the neck, leaving a gap between the back of the neck and the angle where my thumb meets my hand. I'm not sure I'm explaining this well; Mike Marshall does a better job at the 1:39 mark in this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmago...feature=relmfu

So my problem is the fact that, after a couple of months of working on this, it still feels clumsy, and I don't feel like I'm making the progress I had hoped for. My 10-year-old son, who's learning with me, doesn't buy the well-if-it's-good-enough-for-Mike-Marshall-it's-good-enough-for-me argument; he wants to know what, exactly, the benefit is of this hand position, as opposed to the more instinctive (but evidently faulty) tendency to put the palm of the hand against the neck and let the thumb hang over.

Any thoughts?

[Brent Hutto]

I can't really help you with that. If I use the "instinctive" position you mention I can't play a lick when it come to notes on the top string. I think dropping the neck down into the crook of your palm is a way to reach the lower strings (G, D) easier at the expense of not being able to reach the top E strings as well. For instance, playing an open E string while fretting notes on the other three sets of strings just can't happen in that position for me, too much of the palm of my hand lops over onto the treble side of the fretboard.


But I have biggish palms and shortish fingers. Someone built differently might not work that way. My personal theory is that the "instinctive" position just happens to work out pretty well for covering all four strings when making certain 4-string chord shapes and doesn't work so well for anything else. A lot of people start out wanting to make those 4-string chord shapes as the first thing they play (don't get me started on that) and so they practice the hell out of chop chords with the neck down in the palm until any other position feels less familiar.

Given that I don't play 4-finger chop chords, I did not find that position useful at all when I was starting out. So now anything other than the "Mike Marshall position" feels unnatural to me.

[Pete Summers]

I think the main problem with resting the neck in the U of the thumb is that it restricts moving up the neck. For me, I can play just as well with either hold in first position, but when I go to move up the neck, I find the "Mike Marshal position" to be critical.

[Mandobart]

As a kid learning violin, the same left hand position was stressed. My conductors/instructors would say "you must leave a little hole there [the space formed between the neck of the instrument and the gap between the thumb and index finger] so a little mouse can run through." I never really understood what the mouse would be doing there and what he may hope to find running from one side to the other, but it created quite a visual mental image. Of course mice can fit through an opening as small as a dime, but I digress.

Why is this position important? As I move my left hand up so that the fiddle or mando neck is resting in the crook formed by the thumb and index, my left fingers are moving farther from the fingerboard. I like to keep my fingertips just off the fingerboard, so they are in position to hit the notes. The further up my left hand moves, the more my fingers have to bend from the first joint to hit the fingerboard. I feel the best (quickest and most accurate) fingering comes from moving the second (or middle) joint of the fingers, not the first (or base) joint. Maintaining the classic position also tends to keep the left wrist straight, which works much better (more accurate, faster fingering with less fatigue) than if I bend my left wrist and end up with the neck actually in my palm.

[Pete Martin]

View in this order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnhkMqgmJVs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ2kYK4hUBQ

These are ergonomics of the left hand as taught me by a great Performing Arts doctor.

[Pete Martin]

he wants to know what, exactly, the benefit is of this hand position, as opposed to the more instinctive (but evidently faulty) tendency to put the palm of the hand against the neck and let the thumb hang over.

Any thoughts?

For one thing, it keeps your relaxed finger position much closer to the frets, making the total movement and muscle tension required much less. For another, it minimizes the chance of overuse injuries like Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. There are a number of other reasons, but those are the most significant.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Are you holding up the mandolin with your left hand? If you take your LH off the instrument, it should stay put, which means using a strap or balancing it on you knees, etc.

Cheers
MRT

[SincereCorgi]

Maybe you could post a picture or two of your preferred hand position, or ideally a video. The way I am imagining it, based on you description, is that you have your palm flush against the neck, which means you're bending your wrist at an extreme angle and making your fingers curl more than they need to- playing well on the E string is hard enough to learn without making it that much worse. The other thing is that you've only been at it a year. I had bad hand position for a year, too, I tried to hold it like a classical guitar. Thing is, you don't necessarily need good technique to play most typical beginner and early intermediate material, but when you want to start speeding up and doing double stops and things, you're going to hit a wall and not know why.

[John Hill]

Marshall's technique starts with how he holds the mando: cradled in his lap, a leg up & the mando at @ 45 degree angle. That way the mando is held in place without relying primarily on the left hand to hold up the neck. Then the left hand should be relaxed and in position to let the natural angle ofthe hand fall across the fretboard with the index finger resting against the fretboard.

Takes some practice to get used to it.

[somewherepath]

I think I was just about to post a question related to this one - like the OP I've been watching the Mike Marshall videos etc., and it seems like there's general agreement that any kind of tension in your right or your left hand is a bad thing. So, as I'm desperately trying to avoid learning bad habits, I try to follow their advice, but I feel like I have to trade some kind of control and stability for that - i.e. the pick slips in my right hand, either up and down or left to right, because I'm thinking about not pinching it too tight; when I try to avoid pressing my left thumb against the back of the neck to get leverage, or to avoid gripping the neck in the cradle of my left hand when I try to play G and D strings, I find it hard to keep the neck entirely steady, which makes it harder to fret well, etc. I'm sure this is a false dichotomy, that I shouldn't be trading relaxation for control, so does anyone have any advice on how to balance a lack of tension and an ability to control what's going on?

Thanks!

[Brent Hutto]

Control comes with practice. Early on most of us have to use more than the ideal tension to gain enough control to play at all! But just keep reminding yourself to let go any time you start really pressing hard on any part of the instrument. I think the ideal is to keep awareness of those extra-force or extra-tension points. Even if a little extra is required, keeping awareness will help avoid letting it become a problem.

But you can help yourself by using a strap to do 90% of the neck support. And prop the bottom of the mandolin on your leg or lap to do 90% of the work steadying that end. It helps a lot if you don't have to fully prop the neck up with your left hand and grip the bottom of the instrument with your right elbow. You can just use a little bit here and there to steady it that last 10%.

[John Hill]

I would recommend signing up for the academy of bluegrass and following Mike's curriculum which starts with basic technique lessons but is especially helpful where students send Mike videos and he critiques their playing and gives advice, tips, etc.