Why do modes sound different? (if the notes are the same)

[timacn]

Once again, I ask a question whose answer will probably appear obvious to some or many.

Lots of interest and talk regarding modes lately. If the notes for various modes (in the same scale) are the same, why do the modes sound so different? Is it because the intervals are different? Is is because the progressions in these modes differ from one another?

Thanks for putting up with me for this question.

[Brent Hutto]

Well if you're talking about a melody you've pretty much got it right "the intervals are different". Once we decided to break an octave down into exactly twelve notes (nobody really "decided" that, it just sort of happened actually) and we choose to make a scale with seven intervals then there are only so many patterns of whole steps and steps you can make out of that seven-into-twelve kind of arrangement.

Whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step has a certain sound to it
Whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step, whole step has a different sound

and so forth. Our ears generally latch onto something we think of a the "tonal center" which is the tone your ear expect the melody to return to from time to time and which feels restful when you get there. Then as other notes are used, we accumulate this sense of how the intervals within each octave are patterned and that makes the tune feel different depending on that pattern.

I'll let someone else comment on harmony and chords. I do well enough to hear the melody myself!

[John McGann]

Because the focus of the mode is from the 1st note of whatever mode you are going for. That note becomes "home base" for the sound.

This is doubly true if you have the chord that defines the mode going:

Modes of C major and corresponding chord-

DEFGABC (Dm)
EFGABCDE (Em)
FGABCDEF (F)
GABCDEFG (G)
ABCDEFGA (Am)
BCDEFGA (B diminished)

You can record the chord and run up and down the notes of the mode to hear how they react. Then, go one note at a time, and listen for the colors against the chord. Each mode is unique and has individual characteristics, all which would be destroyed by playing a C chord, because the 'point of gravity' of the chord is everything in terms of how those individual notes sound, in context of the chord.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

timacn,

I wouldn't say the notes are the same. Instead of looking at the modes as different starting points on a given major scale, instead consider the modes starting on the same note, say C.

C D E F G A B (Ionian/Major)
C D Eb F G A Bb (Dorian)
C Db Eb F G Ab Bb (Phrygian)
etc.

The notes are not the same from mode to mode, and therefore they sound different.

Cheers
MRT

[John McGann]

What Mark says is correct and valid, in that he's presenting the modes from a single pitch (C) as the tonal center, rather than showing how they are derived from the major scale. In both views, the important stuff:

Major (Ionian) 1234567- the home base scale of do re me fa sol la ti do

each mode has a different characteristic personality. My buddy Rob Thomas, jazz violinist extraordinaire, teaches them in order from brightest to darkest sounding, in a system he calls LIMDAPL ('limbed apple'), an acronym for the actual modes:

Lydian 123#4567 (start on C-same notes as G major scale) Chord Cmaj7 (#11)
Ionian 1234567 (start on C-same notes as C major scale) Chord Cmaj7
Mixolydian 123456b7 (start on C-same notes as F major scale) Chord C7
Dorian 12b3456b7 (start on C-same notes as Bb major scale) Chord Cm6
Aeolian 12b345b6b7 (start on C-same notes as Eb major scale) Chord Cm7 *
Phrygian 1b2b345b6b7 (start on C-same notes as Ab major scale) Chord Cm7 *
Locrian 1b2b34b5b6b7 (start on C-same notes as Db major scale) Chord Cm7b5

Note the 1st 3 modes are major.
The distinguishing notes between Dorian and Aeolian are at 6 and 7.

Note anything interesting about the parallel scale derivations (intervallic movement from "key to key"?)**

"The notes are the same as the major scale" can also be valid, depending on whether you are using the "home base" note of the mode as a tonal center. Play a C scale from E to E, and it's the same notes as C major, but the ear has the E note as the low and high points of the line, and will focus on E as the "tonal center" or home base of the line. Play it with an Em chord and it REALLY sounds like it. Play it against a C chord, and it loses the 'modal quality', because you are hearing the notes in relation to the C chord and not Em- therefore it sounds like 34567123 of C and not 1b2b345b6b7 of Em.

Chords are the planets that supply the gravity that pull the notes toward it- in other words, the chord played is of monumental importance in how the line is perceived (heard). To achieve true modal bliss, the chord(s) has to 'agree' with the mode. You can use two chords to make a 'modal vamp', for example, "So What" is the most famous Dorian tune, and uses an Em-Dm (Em7-Dm7) vamp, with the primary soloing notes DEFGABCD. The Em is just 1.5 beats and the Dm 6.5 beats, so it dominates and makes the music sound Dorian rather than Phrygian. Reverse the chord order, and you have something else altogether- more "Spanish tinge" mood ("mood" synonymous with "mode").

** The chords for both Aeolian and Phrygian don't contain the defining notes of the modes; the big difference is the b2 in Phrygian. Play a listen- Jerusalem Ridge A section is Aeolian; if you alter the B to Bb you'll have a Phrygian sound which is closer to Klezmer than Monroe.

* whoa- goes around the circle of 5ths! Cool!

[DerTiefster]

Is the O.P. asking a question that is (maybe better) illustrated by, "Why does Aminor sound so different from Cmajor when they use the same notes?" I ask myself this question at times and don't have a really good answer for it. I think that the "tonal center" concept is relevant, but I don't understand at any deep level why Cmajor sounds less somber than Aminor. Or why it seems clear to me that a song hasn't ended until the last note comes back to the "tonal center." Some don't, by the way. They are deliberately playing with the audience, leaving an "unfinished" kind of feel hanging in the air. But why that is so almost instinctively apparent remains a question for which I have no answer.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I'd submit that tonal center has everything to do with it. A mode is defined by the sequence of intervals starting from the tonal center. In other words, if you take the same notes and switch the tonal center, you no longer have the same mode in play. The same notes are not used in the same way anymore, and this is because of their relation to the tonal center.

I attached an mp3 which plays the same melody under 3 circumstances. It uses notes from the C major scale. Played alone first. Then played in C major context. Then played in A (harmonic) minor context. Same exact notes to the melody, but different tonal center implied by the accompaniement. That means different modes, therefore different sound.

ModesDemo.mp3

Cheers
MRT

[John McGann]

It ain't the notes, it's the distance between the notes.

[acousticjazz]

This and your previous post would have been extremely helpful for me back in my early music theory days. Sometimes you have to wonder who writes and tries to explain these concepts for text book companies, I believe that you John hit it dead on, it's all just a color palette to get your aural ideas out through your instrument. I'm going to play around and experiment with this and scale exercises on both instruments and really listen to what's happening, and which note has the "pull." thanks!

What Mark says is correct and valid, in that he's presenting the modes from a single pitch (C) as the tonal center, rather than showing how they are derived from the major scale. In both views, the important stuff:

Major (Ionian) 1234567- the home base scale of do re me fa sol la ti do

each mode has a different characteristic personality. My buddy Rob Thomas, jazz violinist extraordinaire, teaches them in order from brightest to darkest sounding, in a system he calls LIMDAPL ('limbed apple'), an acronym for the actual modes:

Lydian 123#4567 (start on C-same notes as G major scale) Chord Cmaj7 (#11)
Ionian 1234567 (start on C-same notes as C major scale) Chord Cmaj7
Mixolydian 123456b7 (start on C-same notes as F major scale) Chord C7
Dorian 12b3456b7 (start on C-same notes as Bb major scale) Chord Cm6
Aeolian 12b345b6b7 (start on C-same notes as Eb major scale) Chord Cm7 *
Phrygian 1b2b345b6b7 (start on C-same notes as Ab major scale) Chord Cm7 *
Locrian 1b2b34b5b6b7 (start on C-same notes as Db major scale) Chord Cm7b5

Note the 1st 3 modes are major.
The distinguishing notes between Dorian and Aeolian are at 6 and 7.

Note anything interesting about the parallel scale derivations (intervallic movement from "key to key"?)**

"The notes are the same as the major scale" can also be valid, depending on whether you are using the "home base" note of the mode as a tonal center. Play a C scale from E to E, and it's the same notes as C major, but the ear has the E note as the low and high points of the line, and will focus on E as the "tonal center" or home base of the line. Play it with an Em chord and it REALLY sounds like it. Play it against a C chord, and it loses the 'modal quality', because you are hearing the notes in relation to the C chord and not Em- therefore it sounds like 34567123 of C and not 1b2b345b6b7 of Em.

Chords are the planets that supply the gravity that pull the notes toward it- in other words, the chord played is of monumental importance in how the line is perceived (heard). To achieve true modal bliss, the chord(s) has to 'agree' with the mode. You can use two chords to make a 'modal vamp', for example, "So What" is the most famous Dorian tune, and uses an Em-Dm (Em7-Dm7) vamp, with the primary soloing notes DEFGABCD. The Em is just 1.5 beats and the Dm 6.5 beats, so it dominates and makes the music sound Dorian rather than Phrygian. Reverse the chord order, and you have something else altogether- more "Spanish tinge" mood ("mood" synonymous with "mode").

** The chords for both Aeolian and Phrygian don't contain the defining notes of the modes; the big difference is the b2 in Phrygian. Play a listen- Jerusalem Ridge A section is Aeolian; if you alter the B to Bb you'll have a Phrygian sound which is closer to Klezmer than Monroe.

* whoa- goes around the circle of 5ths! Cool!

[robert.najlis]

It ain't the notes, it's the distance between the notes.

nice, thank you!

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

It ain't the notes, it's the distance between the notes.

Well put, John!

[Brent Hutto]

I'd submit that tonal center has everything to do with it. A mode is defined by the sequence of intervals starting from the tonal center. In other words, if you take the same notes and switch the tonal center, you no longer have the same mode in play. The same notes are not used in the same way anymore, and this is because of their relation to the tonal center.

I attached an mp3 which plays the same melody under 3 circumstances. It uses notes from the C major scale. Played alone first. Then played in C major context. Then played in A (harmonic) minor context. Same exact notes to the melody, but different tonal center implied by the accompaniement. That means different modes, therefore different sound.

ModesDemo.mp3

Cheers
MRT

A picture may be worth a thousand words but a sound sample can be worth a thousand pictures, at least to those of us who have poor aural imaginations. Thanks for the example, MRT.

[JeffD]

Once again, I ask a question whose answer will probably appear obvious to some or many.

Lots of interest and talk regarding modes lately. If the notes for various modes (in the same scale) are the same, why do the modes sound so different? Is it because the intervals are different? Is is because the progressions in these modes differ from one another?
.

Actually the answer is in the question. They are called different modes because they have been found to sound so different.

[journeybear]

Twenty years ago I took a music theory course taught by a jazz pianist. It got derailed for a few classes - which means weeks - because one guy couldn't understand modes, and rather than setting up a time for individual instruction, the teacher kept us all stuck on this. He had tried to explain modes by saying that such-and-such made was like a major scale starting on this-or-that tone of the scale. My classmate just couldn't make sense of this - which I later understood, as it was wasn't being explained very well. It might have been better to say that a certain mode uses the same notes as another scale, or uses equivalent notes - or something other than what he did. It seems the location of the tonal center is the key (so to speak), and mentioning a different scale tends to distract one's perception. I mean, G Mixolydian may indeed use the same notes (or equivalent notes) as a C major scale (Ionian mode), but you somehow have to perceive this as a G scale, not a C scale.

PS: You think this is complicated? Try learning a language that not only has conjugations of verbs but declensions of nouns!

[mandocrucian]

Modes Made Easy

[journeybear]

Thank you so much! Not necessarily easy, but eaiser!

BTW, I have often wondered - about the names of the modes. Do these represent what was considered typical in these areas of ancient Greece and Asia Minor, and specific to them only? Would you get tarred and feathered (or equivalent) if you played a Phrygian mode song in Lydia? (Wikipedia makes this naming method sound arbitrary.)

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Would you get tarred and feathered (or equivalent) if you played a Phrygian mode song in Lydia?

"This is Sparta!!!"

[journeybear]

Next someone is going to tell me that pan flute players had to have at least seven of them, so they could play in all modes. Surely not seven in every key! Modern harmonica players do this - and then there are those who play cross harp, and then there are a few different cross harp positions, which are very likely related to modes. I mean, you use a G harmonica to play cross harp for a blues in D, which would be Mixolydian mode (for the harmonica) - have I got that right? I suppose ancient Greek blues players played cross pan flute ...

[bobby bill]

He had tried to explain modes by saying that such-and-such made was like a major scale starting on this-or-that tone of the scale.

I think modes are almost always taught this way and I agree that it can be confusing. In fact, they are almost always taught as being the white keys starting on different notes. This has a short term advantage in that you can easily and immediately remember them. But the long term effect is not as beneficial. It is understandable that the OP would see all white keys and wonder how they could be different scales. And one can make non-meaningful connections like thinking that the tonal center of Dorian is D (I mean, that's the way they showed me and they both start with the letter D).

It is more difficult at first, but more meaningful in the long run, to teach modes as being different arrangements of whole-step, half-step patterns. And this becomes more obvious if you show the different modes using the same tonal center as Mark did in post 4.

[journeybear]

Wikipedia uses both approaches (and more) in the article, which may or may not be confusing. I guess if one is given all the information available, one can choose whichever explanation makes the most sense. As far as I'm concerned, the best explanation is this little chart, applicable to any key, reducing scales to long and short intervals. T = whole tone (2 frets), s = semi-tone (1 fret), and the letters indicate the notes one would start on if using the C major (Ionian) scale for the equivalent notes in that mode of the key indicated ... oh drat, going off the deep end again!


Ionian ......... I ..... C ... T-T-s-T-T-T-s
Dorian ........ II .... D ... T-s-T-T-T-s-T
Phrygian ..... III .... E ... s-T-T-T-s-T-T
Lydian ........ IV .... F ... T-T-T-s-T-T-s
Mixolydian ... V .... G ... T-T-s-T-T-s-T
Aeolian ....... VI .... A .. T-s-T-T-s-T-T
Locrian ....... VII ... B .. s-T-T-s-T-T-T

[mandocrucian]

I think modes are almost always taught this way and I agree that it can be confusing. In fact, they are almost always taught as being the white keys starting on different notes.

This is a historical holdover from the era predating equal-temperament. Before 12TET (equal temperament) - the scale being divided into 12 semi-tones of equal distance, "whole-steps" were of slightly different distances (ditto for "half-steps") within the non-tempered (just tuning, mean tuning, Pythagorean, etc.) intonational system. Thus, in medieval and renaissance music, there was even more of a sonic difference/flavor of particular modes than there is in today's 12TET (watered down) modes. Dorian was more than a minor scale with a raised 6th, because there were slight fluctuations between the distances between the other notes as well, because the original root (Ionian) scale/mode was 'uneven'.

So in ancient times, if you had played just-tuned (or other tuning system) instruments (which were tuned to one particular pitch/key), you HAD to use the "dorian is the mode of the 2nd pitch" etc. etc. If the instrument was tuned in C, the major scale in F, or G would sound slightly different, and the further away from C (in circle of 5ths) you get, the scale slowly deteriorate into harsh, bad sounding "wolf keys". (Ask an autoharp player to give you an explantation/demonstration.)

NH

[GRW3]

Okay theorists, how about matching the modes to styles, tunes and songs? I find examples to be a real good way of helping me understand a musical technique or concept.

["Umm, fish?"]

Miles Davis, So What?:

The entire A section is in D dorian. The entire B section is in Eb dorian. The challenge is coming up with something interesting in what is an almost completely harmonically static song.

[SincereCorgi]

This is a historical holdover from the era predating equal-temperament. Before 12TET (equal temperament) - the scale being divided into 12 semi-tones of equal distance, "whole-steps" were of slightly different distances (ditto for "half-steps") within the non-tempered (just tuning, mean tuning, Pythagorean, etc.) intonational system...

This is a good point – the limitations of instruments have always had a big impact on harmonic practice – but I increasingly think it's a mistake to try to connect the modes as they are presently practiced to the Greek or Church modes as they were historically practiced. As I see it, the 'modern' conception modal music comes out of the explorations of composers like Debussy and Mussorgsky (who, granted, were sometimes trying to evoke an antique liturgical sound). The early 20th century was a really fertile time for weird synthetic scales – Busoni, particularly, had some neat ideas – and I think the more harmonically adventurous jazz players in the '40s and '50s (not to mention guys like Messiaen) were directly influenced by those sounds.

[Laurence Firth]

[QUOTE=Brent Hutto;969668] Once we decided to break an octave down into exactly twelve notes (nobody really "decided" that, it just sort of happened actually) and we choose to make a scale with seven intervals then there are only so many patterns of whole steps and steps you can make out of that seven-into-twelve kind of arrangement.

I disagree with this statement on two counts. The division of the octave into 12 notes did not just sort of happen. It was an issue of great debate and consideration over a few 100 years. In fact for most of the history of western music the octave was divided into more than 12 notes. Before equal temperament there were many different tempered scales that included more than 12 notes. In fact sharps and flats were not the same note (EG A# was not the same note as Bb). It's a fascinating musical history story about how we arrived at just 12 notes in the octave. Good books on the subject are: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony by Ross Duffin and Temperament: How Music Became a Battleground for the Great Minds of Western Civilization. There are other books as well. It's so easy to think of our western scales as being THE only way to divide up the octave but it was not always the case. It all goes back to the origins of music an the Octave it's self as the basis for our singing and music. Great discussion here as aways!