I guess the signed Loar label fell out!

[MikeEdgerton]

The seller isn't taking any questions about it, I assume he knows it isn't real.

[michaelpthompson]

Yes, selling counterfeits violates eBay policy.

But eBay can't enforce that unless somebody reports it. Hint, hint.

[Eric Hanson]

Reported. Let's see how long it takes, if the powers that be even take action.

[Ben Milne]

The top looks as if it might have had a repair after something like a fire-poker had been thrust through it... If it's Bill's lost 2nd loar it could be a bargain even with the refin/ back replacement etc

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I messaged the seller about it, and hope they will do the right thing to either update the listing or pulled it altogether.

[almeriastrings]

Looks like claro walnut to me.

Back in the 60's there was quite a little "industry" in making what people now call "fakes". You have to remember, there was nothing like the choice of F5 type mandolins that are around now. You got a Gibson F5 at a whole lot of $$ (and in many cases, not much of a mandolin either), or you got a plywood piece of junk.... the plethora of independent luthiers now cranking out top-line instruments just did not exist. Neither did the pac-rim imports. It was also not viewed quite as dimly as it is now to put on a repro label or logo, either... so, some people made their own attempts at "creating" shall we say, "vintage" instruments. Some of those people went on to become "legit" luthiers in their own right. This is nothing new, of course, as "fake" Strad's outnumber real ones by thousands to one...

Some (like these "fake" mandolins and banjos) can be genuinely good instruments in their own right. Some are not. There is no real way to know unless you can see it and play it. They were not all made to scam someone... a lot were made because somebody wanted a vintage-style F5 or RB250 and no-one at the time was making them.

There was also a lot of "retro" customising going on... adding herringbone or abalone to more recent D-28's, 45-style headstock overlays, and putting together new instruments from old parts or damaged examples. You could not buy a '45 from Martin until 1969... so prior to that, if you wanted one, "faking it" was the only way to go. You have to put this in historical context. Some of these are now interesting, and collectable in their own right.

[Mandolin Mick]

Ad seems to be carefully worded as if he either knows it's not the real thing or highly suspects it's not the real thing. Bet this instrument has a very interesting history ...

[almeriastrings]

I think a lot of these have interesting histories. Most were made quite a few years before even plans (let alone kits) for F-5 mandolins were readily available.. people made moulds by guesswork, or often unreliable measurements from instruments in for repair or borrowed for a few hours, some were made from nothing more than catalog pictures... some are very, very highly skilled work with great materials. Some are pretty dire. I have seen some that were just great mandolins, though... others only fit for firewood. No consistency whatever with these... but, if you find a good one, they are fascinating conversation pieces! Obviously, anyone SELLING one today should be upfront about what it is (or is not).

[Ray(T)]

Is somebody going to post this on the "Worst Scroll" thread?

[Vernon Hughes]

The seller probably/actually knows nothing about this..They are part of the treasure hunters roadshow that sets up in holiday inns all over the country and buy instruments/collectibles for pennies on the dollar from people who really want to sell and know less than what they do..I bought an old a model from them sometime back and from the responses to my specific questions before purchase they actually didn't really know anything..I complained after receiving the instrument about some serious condition problems and they reimbursed me 200.00 on a 500.00 purchase because they didn't know enough about it or the problems..fair enough..I'm not defending them,just sharing my experience..That one's definitely not right though..

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm pretty sure Tom reported it when he posted the OP, I reported it, I'm sure others have reported it. I was unable to ask the seller about it because he wasn't answering questions about it. I still think that's shady. The real problem is that eBay stands to make money on these so they are reluctant to take down a listing from a legitimate member. They'll take down the listings from the sketchy guys. Somebody is buying this thinking they're getting a treasure. Hopefully they won't be too disappointed.

[Bill Snyder]

They do have this in their listing:
"we are very happy to correct anything that may be amiss. If you are not completely satisfied with your purchase, you may return it for a refund."

AND it is back to 0 bids with a starting price of 99 cents.

[MikeEdgerton]

The original link is showing the listing as having been ended. If you want to see something interesting look at his negative feedback. He has a 99% rating because he sells so much but a good percentage of the negatives are for musical instruments and non shipment.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

So is it completely illegal to sell that then because it says "The Gibson" and it isn't one? Or could he sell it as a fake and be off the hook? Like if he put it up on the classifieds as a Fake Gibson Mandolin. Cuz it still shouldn't be hard to sell that one.

[MikeEdgerton]

You cannot sell counterfeit items on eBay, even if you say it's a fake according to their rules. They don't always enforce their own rules.

[almeriastrings]

Interesting question... there are probably copyright infringement issues.... "The Gibson" script and flowerpot, for example... then again, look at how many mandolins have included the latter! As to the basic design, just about every non-Gibson "F-style" is - to some extent - a "fake" in that regard!!!

[JeffD]

It is illegal to sell counterfeit. Even if you sell it as counterfeit.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Then I'll take it for free and not tell anyone.

[MikeEdgerton]

Interesting question... there are probably copyright infringement issues.... "The Gibson" script and flowerpot, for example... then again, look at how many mandolins have included the latter! As to the basic design, just about every non-Gibson "F-style" is - to some extent - a "fake" in that regard!!!

It would be the same for every Martin style dreadnought guitar as well. Some designs are widely copied but when you put a brand name on it then it becomes a counterfeit item. There are watches made by most of the major asian manufacturers that look like the Rolex oyster case. It only becomes an issue when you put the Rolex brand name on it.

[Darryl Wolfe]

It's a 70's Iida/Alvarez with it's original case

[f5loar]

I don't think they used walnut on those 70's imports. The headstock and F holes are too crudley cut to be japan import. The binding is poorly done. I'm seeing just a bad attempt by a backyard woodsman likely from the late 60's to early 70's. The case is the same Gibson used in late 68 to early 70 for the F5,F12,EM200 and A5. I asked the seller to send me a photo of the 2nd label and he did get back to me with this "All the label states is things that have been tuned and looked over back in the day, so the sticker would not have anything to do with manufacture or up to date"

[Ken Waltham]

Agree, Tom. That's a late 60's Gibson case. Had a couple of F12's in that case in the past.
Ken

[f5loar]

I've got a closet full of them. Likely the worst F5 case Gibson ever used. Very whimpy compared to the previous and post cases of this era.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Looks like it's back - this time sold as an unknown vintage with no reference of Gibson anywhere in the ad: http://www.ebay.com/itm/130569953387

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I still think it's pretty neat.