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Thread: Grisman or Bush?

  1. #1

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    I originally thought that Grisman played mando on BB on the manzanita album... someone told me that it was actually Bush...

    I just got the Tony Rice Bluegrass Guitar Collection cd (which I highly recommend!). Tony says that Grisman played mando & Bush played violin...

    Since I only have a copy of the Manzanita album I don't know what that says...

    Does anybody know who plays mando on this song?

    Thanks,

    Eric

  2. #2
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    Eric,

    On the Manzanita CD credits it lists Sam Bush for both mando and violin for Blackberry Blossom.

    fuzzy

  3. #3

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    hmm, so maybe Tony's memory is a little fuzzy!

    Eric

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    Registered User JimRichter's Avatar
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    The only thing, if I remember correctly, that Grisman played mando on was Nine Pound Hammer. I do know that all the fiddle tunes were Sam on both fiddle and mandolin.


    Jim

  5. #5

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    Dawg played mando on 'Blossom

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    Registered User JimRichter's Avatar
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    Scotti, are you bashing me?!? Seems like you're getting in the habit of bashing everybody, including that poor defensely Chris Thile.

    You know, it always sounded to me like Grisman did the Blackberry Blossom solo (just due to the phrasing and heavy touch he has with a pick), but I swore I read somewhere that Sam played the solo. So it goes.

    Jim

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    On Manzanita,Grisman plays mando on Blackberry Blossom,Nine pound hammer and Stoney point.

  8. #8

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    nope Jim..not bashing...just stating a fact..sorry if you took it that way....and to the best of my knowledge I havent bashed anyone else...not even poor ol defenseless Thile... On the bootleg tape Ive got of the Manzanita band live...Sammy does indeed play mando and Skaggs plays the fiddle...Dawg was no where to be found..




  9. #9
    Mark Jones Flowerpot's Avatar
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    I've got Manzanita right in front of me, and the liner notes say Bush plays mando and fiddle on Blackberry Blossom. The only credited song for Grisman is Nine Pound Hammer. The mando break on BB sure sounds like Sam to me.

    My question is: who does the "yelp" thing during Tony's break? It sounds like Ricky, but according to the notes, he ain't on that cut. Though I always thought the fiddle break sounded more like Ricky than Sam.

  10. #10

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    ...hmmm..could there possibly be 2 different recordings of this floating around?....I'd bet my first born that Gris is playing 'Blossom....cuz there aint no "yelp" in my record and Gris' and Sammy's styles are so different that they are easily detectable.




  11. #11
    Registered User kudzugypsy's Avatar
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    it sounds like some folks may have some alt. version of this song. although i have never seen another studio cut from this session anywhere

    the ORIGINAL Manzanita LP (Rounder 0092) version clearly states Grisman as the mando player on BB......even if it didnt there is NO WAY you could confuse Grisman with Bush on this cut.....that break is Dawgish as can be.
    Bush would have flat tore into that one.




  12. #12

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    I will step out on a big limb here; I think the Manzanita session(s) are hands down one of the finest recordings in the history of acoustic music. I have also always felt that if there was anything amiss at all on that record, it was the presence of Grisman and his few solos. While technically correct as his playing always is, it is also IMHO the only source of any "self-conscious" notes on the recording. It seems funny that anybody would mistake the Blackberry Blossom solo as Sam Bush's. Skagg's fiddle playing is absolutely outrageous, and with Sam & Ricky on board, I have always felt that Grisman's contribution on mandolin was more a required courtousy due to Tony's past membership in the DGQ and the California location of the sessions. Sorry Dawg fans, flame away....
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

  13. #13

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    Well, I don't know about the "required courtesy". According to the Bluegrass Guitar Collection Liner notes,

    "If memory serves correctly, this tune was not scheduled as part of the initial concept. The bulk of our working day being complete, we decided to party. Grisman showed up, we started jamming, and he said, "Hey man...let's cut this!" And we did." - Tony Rice..

    I always thought the break sounded like Dawg...

    Which leads me to another question.... Listening to this great disc with so many great mandolinists, begs my inexpericened ears to ask....How would you describe different professionals tone(& style)? (Grisman,Bush,Reishman,Lawson,etc)

    Maybe I should start a new topic?

    Eric

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    Registered User kudzugypsy's Avatar
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    fretbear, i have always thought that also. still, as you say, possibly the pentacle of new acoustic bluegrass. its my observation that the bluegrass-background players on MZ (Tony, Sam, Ricky, Flux) really pushed the beat, and that Grisman played slightly behind the beat (a jazz habit). plus his phrasing is so different. this made his work on some cuts seem to break the momentium. the 9lb Hammer is the perfect example...but, then again, it provided a fresh (new at the time) sound on the project. you know it could possibly be the name recognition of dawg at the time ('77) that had a big part of it. putting him on the album was sure to boost its circulation. I'm in no way implying that is the only reason he is on there, or that his playing is not up to par, but who was Ricky, Sam, and Flux in 1977 certainly not many in CA had exposure to them.

  15. #15

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    Kudzu, that's it exactly. I had not been able to put my finger on it before. It was a timing thing; not in any way wrong, but somewhere inappropriate to the spirit of the project... J.D. Crowe's "drive" influence was all over that recording and that is amazing considering there is not a banjo note to be heard....
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

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  17. #16

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    ..couldnt agree with you more Fretbear.

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    Registered User JimRichter's Avatar
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    I think the discrepancies in liner notes probably has to do w/ the rerelease on CD. The CD liner notes credit Dawg w/ only the 9lb Hammer solo (which is my least favorite on the album). The original LP apparently gives the correct acknowledgements.

    I'm glad that's cleared up, because for so long I've listened to that mando solo in Blackberry Blossom and couldn't believe it was Bush, especially the clunkiness in the Eminor part of the tune. Bush has a much lighter touch and lilt in his fiddle tunes on the mando.

    Jim

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    Registered User Tom C's Avatar
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    I have not listened to it for a while but Grisman probably plays alot of pentatonics in that break.

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    Registered User JimRichter's Avatar
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    The reason I don't like it is that there's no direction or theme to the solo. It's a lot of noodling and breaks the momentum of the tune.

  21. #20

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    ..yep....Grisman just breaks the vibe of the record...

  22. #21

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    Not for me! I love BB and while 9lb is "out there", I enjoy it too! Although that break is more like a 2nd or 3rd break, I still like it!

    For the record, I personally could do without any vocals on that album! And maybe 9lb should have been longer with more breaks for each player.

    Eric

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    Registered User Yonkle's Avatar
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    Where can I get this Manzanita CD? Did'nt see it on Grismans site. Sounds like a good CD!
    Shalom,Yonkle (JD)

  24. #23
    Registered User JimRichter's Avatar
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    I definitely list Tony R. as one of my all time favorite bluegrass (or any genre for that matter) singers. It's unfortunate that it appears those days have past him by.

    Love the singing on that album and I really don't think I'd listen to it that much if it were all instrumental. Years ago I was into the instrumental album concept but have long since put it aside. I just can't make it all the way through one unless the writing is incredibly good.

    The duet between Skaggs and Rice on Hold Whatcha Got is classic. Even considering how much of an old Seldom Scene fan I am, I think Rice does the definitive vocal on Old Train. It's a really strong vocal album, as most of Rice's early albums were.

    Being a banjoist first, I never really listened to Rice's solo albums much (since they had no banjo) until I bought Cold on the Shoulder when it came out. It was then that I was blown away by his singing.

    In regards to Grisman on 9lb Hammer--he should have respected the form of the song and played something more in keeping with the song.

    Jim

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    Hey, everybody likes what they like (and don't what they don't), which is all cool by me, but...

    Grisman has a style that he applied/applies to all his tunes. I expect Dawg when he's on the session. To say he broke the tune is a bit harsh, IMO.

  26. #25

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    Jim, I do agree with you on Old Train - I do love that version.

    As to 9lb, if the album were a traditional bluegrass album, then yes Grisman should have played a more melodic break. I feel, & maybe I am wrong, but since the title of the album is Manzanita - and the song of the same name is NOT a traditional bluegrass song & there is no banjo, this is not necessarily a traditional bluegrass album...

    But, what do I know!

    Eric

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