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Thread: Fast and slow examples

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    Peace. Love. Mandolin. Gelsenbury's Avatar
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    Default Fast and slow examples

    I was wondering about this before in another thread, but I think the topic deserves its own.

    As a beginning mandolin player and a newcomer to Celtic music, I'm trying to feel my way into the field by playing, listening and watching (not necessarily in this order) as much as possible. I'm learning the similarities and differences between reels and hornpipes, double jigs and slides, and so on. But I'd like your expert help in defining a range of speeds at which these tunes can reasonably be played. I often read here that playing too fast will obscure the rhythm, but I don't have a good vantage point because everything played at my local session is still too fast for me.

    So, would you like to share some examples of Youtube clips of the fastest and slowest hornpipe that you like? The fastest and slowest reel? The fastest and slowest jig? You get the idea ...

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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    I hit the same issues as you have here Gelensbury.

    A combination I've been using to get around this is to choose my favourite performers CD or download one with the best feel from iTunes, then use software to re-work the speed. I use BestPractice (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multime...Practice.shtml) to do the slow-downs and save them at 50/60/70/80/85/90% then convert them back to MP3 (using http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm ) and import them back to iTunes. I then have several playlists for "song and slows" which I put on the iPod. Then using the iPod with one earphone in I play along to which ever speed I can manage until I move on up.

    The only danger here is getting locked into a weird key version of the tune, but if you use any of the most popular CD versions from the big names you'll be flying along in no time. It really gets them under your belt quickly, and you don't feel like you're draggin' the rest back by using the sessions as just practice time. And the iPod doesn't give you the evil-eye or spill your pint either which is a bonus.
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    Registered User AnneFlies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    Use a metronome. It's your best friend. I used to hate mine until I used it every time I practiced. Learn the notes at a slow steady speed (your own speed), then gradually bump it up. I'd rather play clear and steady than fast and horrible.
    A "Not Ready for Prime Time" player

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    Peace. Love. Mandolin. Gelsenbury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    I appreciate the advice about how to get faster, but that's a topic already handled in many threads. With this one, I'm really just trying to familiarise myself with the range of tempos at which traditional tunes are commonly played. Bertram recently posted a video of someone from his session playing jigs at breakneck speed, which I'll assume to be the upper limit for jigs. I want to fill in the gaps.

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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    If you suss out the BBC Radio 2 virtual session (use your favourite search engine to locate it as I'm a luddite with most computer stuff) you'll get an idea of tempos for various tunes. They may not be the ones you're playing but you can learn the tune(s) of your choice and then play along.

    Best of luck,

    Paul

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    Peace. Love. Mandolin. Gelsenbury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    OK, I've made some progress. Here's the video previously posted by Bertram, which I'll define as the upper speed limit for jigs: http://www.youtube.com/user/ohala67#p/a/u/2/A8pUP-3jmMs

    The slowest jig I've heard so far is "The Dunedin Jig" from Marla Fibish & Jimmy Crowley's "Morning Star" album: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Dunedin-...966485&sr=1-10

    Perhaps I'm the only person to find this helpful, but I'm trying to get an idea of the speed range for different types of dance music.

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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    Great advice.

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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    There are no hard and fast rules except:
    If you are playing for dancers, the dancers will let you know what beat they want - they will use hand signals during dancing telling you to speed up or slow down - expect it to be fast.
    If you are playing a SET DANCE for an INDIVIDUAL dancer, thh dancer will be trying to fit a SET number of steps to the dance (usually in a competition) - jigs, slip jigs, hornpipes, and marches are more common for this - usually between 68 - 72 BPM.
    In a SET DANCE where there are multiple partners - e'g Walls of Limerick, Siege of Ennis, Sweets of May - where multiple tunes are played, again expect it to be fast and the dancers or the Caller will provide the beat.
    When you are playing the music solo or in a setting in which you are the principal , play it at any speed that pleases you want e.g Marla and Jimmy
    In a Jam setting, if you nominate the tune you choose the speed and the others should honor that - expect the speed to creep up as it goes on...
    Similarly, if someone else chooses the tune, they dictate the speed - usually lightening fast...

    Enjoy the music at whatever speed pleases you, and avoid the lightening jams if it doesn't please you.

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    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    An interesting one, this. I have found a great tendency in recent playing, especially by the very technically proficient young players who seem to abound nowadays, to play the tunes too fast! This is not just an elderly player bemoaning the fact I cannot reach their speeds, but the fact that they often just play too fast for the dances. I notice this especially when translating pipe marches to other instruments, and especially 6/8 marches which are used in many Scottish dances. if you get involved in playing for Scottish Country Dancing (as opposed to the freer ceilidh dancing) there are very strict tempos have to be adhered to or you will find the dancers do not hesitate to tell you.
    I was talking to a top dancing judge at the Cowal Highland Gathering here in Dunoon a couple of years ago and we were watching the World Solo Competitions and I remarked that the tempo seemed to have increased over the past few years (solo pipers play for the dancers). He agreed with me.
    There is somewhere a series of suggested tempos for all the popular dances but I cannot remember just where this is; I hope some other posters can maybe point you to this chart or you could try searching for "recommended tempos for....dancing".

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    Registered User dustyamps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    I wonder how much of the speed is locally determined. I've seen a fair number of Youtube hornpipes but our local experts play them lightning speed -- faster than reels, in many cases. And I just played a slip jig for dancers that was pretty zippy, when I always thought a slip jig was a little bit more sedate. I always end up playing (if I can) at the speed the rest of the session moves at and long gave up trying to make any sense of it. fwiw
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    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    I don't feel competent to decide the speed of a new tune, until I know it well enough to play it without notation. Then, somehow, intuitively, the correct speed makes itself known. Too fast and I find myself leaving out certain notes just to keep the melody functional. Too slow, and it loses something essential in the interaction between melody and rhythm. Hmmm, maybe hard for new player to understand what i mean by such an interaction.

    I sometimes get annoyed to hear recordings of hotshots playing some notey hornpipe extremely fast, just to show the world he (it's always a guy) can hit all the notes. It's a testosterone thing. If you want to hear hornpipes played not too fast and not too slow, listen to any master of the form, someone like Kevin Burke. Walsh's hornpipe,Minnie Foster's Hornpipe are two by him, that come to mind immediately.

    I play a lot of contra dances. Our band practices with a digital metronome, because we already know how fast we have to play every tune in our dance repertoire, in order for the dancers to thrive. Speed varies within a limited range: about 108 to about 115 bpm.

    While rehearsing to the metronome, we all seem to discover at about the same moment, which tunes lose their internal melodic beauty by being played at dance speed. We save our favorite slower tunes for other performances. Two examples of "slower than dance speed" tunes our band loves to play and extemporaneously add harmonies, solos, — but which we never play at a dance — include Cuckoos Nest and Swinging on a Gate.

    On the other hand, some consider these same two tunes to be proper contra dance standards. In such a way, subjectivity trumps objectivity.
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    Registered User jwynia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    The school where I take lessons (The Center for Irish Music) has samples at "slow" and "fast" paces for several tunes here:

    http://centerforirishmusic.org/resou...session-tunes/

    Brian Miller (the one playing the flute in those samples) often plays faster than his "fast" recording, but student sessions, ensembles, etc. play more like the "fast" recording.

    The recordings are specifically designed for teaching those tunes to new students at CIM.

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    Peace. Love. Mandolin. Gelsenbury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    It's interesting how somebody else's one-line reply has caused such a detailed and helpful discussion in a thread I created over two years ago!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kelly View Post
    There is somewhere a series of suggested tempos for all the popular dances but I cannot remember just where this is; I hope some other posters can maybe point you to this chart or you could try searching for "recommended tempos for....dancing".
    Perhaps you mean this one, which I found in another thread: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...=1#post1017850

    I have never actually played for dancers, but I have been to enough sessions by now to notice that different sessions like to play tunes at different speeds. Jigs and reels are usually still too fast for me, so I just get to play them at home, at a tempo with which I'm comfortable. I can keep up with some polkas and hornpipes, waltzes are fine.

    I do wonder at sessions sometimes whether dancers actually could dance at the speed that some reels are being played ...

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fast and slow examples

    Packie Manus Byrne, a great Donegal whistle player, suggests these tempos. And hey, if Packie liked, I am fine with it.
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