Cost of F style?

[yankees1]

It must take a lot of extra hours to build a F style mandolin vs an A style as the cost difference is so much and with the higher end mandolins this amount can be close to double. I just don't understand it, but-----I'm not a luthier!

[Big Joe]

It all boils down to labor cost. It also takes a little more material and finish, though that is not terribly substantial. An A model can be made in about 1/4 the number of hours an F style can. If you want it to look good that requires extra labor and build time. If you want it to sound good that also takes a bit more time and care in the build process. Then if you want it setup nicely that also takes a bit more time. The materials to build any instrument is only a fairly small part of the build itself. The labor costs can be astronomical. Not only that, the experience and learning curve the luthier had to go through is also worth something. The hard part is that when the builder is finished there is not all that much profit in the end product. If it is not built first rate he does not have as much time, but the price is substantially lower. He can build more but still not much profit. If it is a really nice mandolin and he is one of the upper priced luthiers he still does not make much money. The time it takes to build and all the other aspects of marketing and keeping in front of the public and the events he is asked to attend all take time and that takes away from building and that takes away from profit.

Most non luthiers on the cafe will earn substantially more than most of the luthiers. It is a career based on love of the instrument and doing the work first and foremost. Hopefully we can make a living at it too. Many can't and have had to stop building. It has been especially tough the last few years as the economy has softened. Lots of good luthiers have had to find other ways to support their families.

[sunburst]

...but-----I'm not a luthier!

That's the thing. Once you've built a few of each it really starts to come home to you how much extra work there is to an F. It's not just carving the body scroll, a very time consuming thing in itself, but binding the body is a multi-step process with 8 corner miters and tight curves to bend, the peghead carving and binding difference is similar to the body, the scroll is in the way of the neck set, the fret work, the finish work, and on it goes. I've often looked up from some hour long task on a F-style mandolin and thought how it was a building step that does not even exist when building an A. If I ever get organized enough to do time studies once again, I'm rather curious, myself, how many more hours are involved in making and F rather than an A.
Add to that the strength of the market for F-style mandolins and the premium buyers are willing to pay, and what reason is there for builders to not charge all they can? Some of us are trying to make a living at this, after all.

[JeffD]

Considering the amount of work involved in making a decent mandolin, of any kind, I am surprized any of them are affordable.

[Jim Hilburn]

I think the biggest extra cost is mental.

[draino]

I think the biggest extra cost is mental.

Do builders have more fun making f-style, or are they just as happy not having to deal with the scroll?

[sunburst]

I think the biggest extra cost is mental.

I understand Orville Gibson died in an insane asylum. That pretty much says it.

[kkmm]

It seems to me that luthiers make money more from repairs and instrument setup works.
Building an instrument (mandolin or guitar) from ground up costs a lot (money, effort, learning curve, frustration) more than buying one. The few rewards for building one is: self satisfaction for a job well done, admiration from friends (I do admire those who can build instrument themselves), customizations of the instrument the way you like.

[James Sanford]

Just as an instance of the time it takes to do some of this work....

I recently was asked to put a new neck in an F-style mandolin. Not knowing how much to charge I decided to keep as accurate records as possible of my time. Long story short I spent in excess of 40 hours removing the old neck, building the new neck and re-installing the new neck and finishing. If I had charged even $10.00 an hour it would have been too high for the work. Maybe I am just too slow.

[Willie Poole]

It`s pretty much the same with just about any projects in woodworking...I have whole shed full of tools and used to build some simple things like bird houses and such and when trying to sell them at flea markets I found I was working for about 2 bucks an hour....So now the shed just sits full of saw dust....I didn`t expect to make a lot of money doing it but I would have liked to make enough to pay for the saws and routers etc.....

I envy you builders.....Willie

[testore]

$400 sounds very cheap to me. It's a ton of work.

[banjophobic]

My recent foray into mandolin building has leanings toward commercial viability ... eventually, and maybe...but certainly not in the immediate future. I don't care if I sell any of them right now. I'm building them "because I can", and wouldn't mind if I had a room full of them. Though I started with my little jazz guitar inspired model, regular A's and F's are in the plans too. I'm having a bunch of fun right now, and as long as it's fun, I'll build them. I know better than to think I'll earn a living building mandolins. I won't enter the market as the "new kid ijn town" and deeply discount my work. I did it with banjos, and I won't make the same mistake again. I've been "paying my dues" for 21 years ... so I'm "done with that".

Banjophobic

[Charles E.]

As a builder who does not do inlay, how do you charge for the " Torch and Wire" stuff?! Man thats a lot of hour's there.

[Paul Busman]

It`s pretty much the same with just about any projects in woodworking...I have whole shed full of tools and used to build some simple things like bird houses and such and when trying to sell them at flea markets I found I was working for about 2 bucks an hour....So now the shed just sits full of saw dust....I didn`t expect to make a lot of money doing it but I would have liked to make enough to pay for the saws and routers etc.....

I envy you builders.....Willie

Willie-- if you really loved making those bird houses, it WAS worth it. Any extra bucks you made were pure gravy.

[banjophobic]

I think it would be easier for a builder who doesn't do inlay to figure out how to charge for the torch and wire ... because you can easily find out how much custom inlay would charge you for the headstock veneer already inlaid.

The torch and wire doesn't strike me as that complex ... Look at this banjo headstock. This is an early No 9 Vega inspired neck. It takes a full day to cut the inlay, then you have to set the inlay, and finally engrave it. There's about 20 hours in this headstock.

Banjophobic

[Mike Snyder]

The thing that always strikes me, is that these small-shop guys cannot afford to let a mandolin out the door that doesn't look and sound good. The ones who do are not going to last. The instrument is the advertising. The big shops have survived after periods of selling crappy stuff that would be the end of the one-man shop. Hats off to you fellas trying to make a living at it. I've often wondered which had day jobs. Most, I think. My local builders, here in Kansas, Mssrs. Black and Kneeland, both get a funny pained look in their eyes when I mention that I'd love to commission an F4. Good thing I'm poor.
By the way, both those guys have day jobs and both have built exellent mandolins.

[James Sanford]

$400 sounds very cheap to me. It's a ton of work.

I looked at this as a learning process. The mandolin was a lower end instrument and in good concience I could not charge the customer more than the mandolin was worth.

I sure learned that if I undertake to do this same procedure in the future I will quote a higher price.

[Charles E.]

I think it would be easier for a builder who doesn't do inlay to figure out how to charge for the torch and wire ... because you can easily find out how much custom inlay would charge you for the headstock veneer already inlaid.

The torch and wire doesn't strike me as that complex ... Look at this banjo headstock. This is an early No 9 Vega inspired neck. It takes a full day to cut the inlay, then you have to set the inlay, and finally engrave it. There's about 20 hours in this headstock.

Banjophobic

That is sweet!

[Willie Poole]

Paul, I DID enjoy doing it but after giving away some things as gifts and then trying to sell some I just couldn`t make any money, that wasn`t a complaint, just an observation as to how much an hour woodworkers make....The reason the shed is sitting idle now is that the shelves are full of projects that are finished and I couldn`t move them or give any more away, most relatives and friends have one or two of my items now so they don`t need or want any more....I`ll go back and look at some different plans and build some more stuff soon.....I might even try making a mandolin, I did cut out a piece of plywood in the shape of a mandolin and it is hanging on my front porch.....sunbursted and all

[re simmers]

I respect and appreciate the luthiers making a living at it. It's like a lot of other trades, it's a dying art. We're on the 'cafe' and exposed to lots of builders, but overall, there are not that many builders who have the skills and business mind, and maybe a little luck, to build instruments for a living. Some builders get what seems to be a good price for their instruments, but I don't see anyone living in a 1/4 million dollar house with health insurance, retirement, vacations and a wife who doesn't have a job. What's in a good F model, 130, 150 hours? Then add the marketing time & stuff that big Joe mentioned.

Woodworking is a very satisfying hobby, but few can quit their day job. About the only woodworker I know who made a living at it was an antique restorer. Not just a refinsher, but a restorer. This means taking a chair from the 1700's that has turned black and not funtional, and restoring it to it's original form. That means using the same mixture of chemicals used to originally finish it.....not making it look like a 2011 version with "golden oak" stain from Lowe's. This is another dying art, and takes a lifetime to learn. I know enough to be dangerous, and enough to know why it's a dying art. Like F-style mandolin building, its takes hard physical labor, lots of trial & error experience, lots of study and mentoring, determination, a love for the craft and a few tools.

As for building out of wood, it's tough to convince the world to pay more than the $5 a day that some countries pay people to build.

Bob

[Martian]

If you only consider the scroll, (sort of the difference between A/F), carve the scroll, carve the volute, cut in the scroll, and clean up bind the scroll area, (also on the peghead), get stain and finish in those hard to reach areas, then turn it over and do the other side. Oh yeah, and in regard to the binding, there isn't a 45% angle anywhere. Then look at these same trouble areas on an A. It is like binding a pear. once around the top, once around the back. Hours, hours... you get it.

[Willie Poole]

You are so right Bob, I see some items much like the ones that I build and they are for sale for about 1/10 of what I would need to charge to make ends meet...I made a lot of things because my wife was taking painting classes and each week she needed a different item/project to do the differnt styles so I made her items instead of having the art teacher furnish them, that save us a lot of money.....I asked if I could make more items for the teachers other students but she said her husband made all of the items she furnished, I wanted my wife to start giving the painting lessons and then I could make all of the items for her to furnish but she doesn`t think she is good enough to teach...and so it goes....

Willie

[allenhopkins]

I understand Orville Gibson died in an insane asylum...

According to Simonoff, the St. Lawrence State Hospital in Ogdensburg, where Gibson died in 1918, did not become a mental hospital until after Gibson's death"

It is not known whether Orville returned to Kalamazoo, his instrument work, or the company that bore his name during the period of 1911 to 1918. On August 21, 1918, at 10:10am, Orville H. Gibson died of a disease diagnosed as chronic endocarditis. He succumbed while a patient at the St. Lawrence State Hospital, in Ogdensberg, N.Y., then a hospital for major diseases (today known as the St. Lawrence Psychiatric Center - an institution for mental care). Orville's funeral services, followed by his burial, were held on August 22, 1918. His death certificate indicates his occupation as "musician."

Doesn't mean he wasn't crazy -- aren't all musicians?

[sunburst]

A guy who lives in Orville's home town said he actually died in a mental hospital, but to avoid the stigma of that (a "problem" in those days, apparently) they quickly moved his body to the general hospital and pronounced him dead there. It's only what I've heard, I don't know the real story, and surely scrolly mandolins weren't really what sent him there.

[Fretbear]

It's not just the scroll either;
Shaped, bound and inlayed F-5 pegheads represent a huge investment of a builder's time and energy.