Finishing Process

[Jules Tenney]

When staining, do you do the whole instrument in one go, or do the top, back, and sides / neck in stages? I'll be wiping it on.

[JeffD]

There is a video somewhere, and I cannot find the link, where a fellow, a guitar maker if I remember, goes through the whole finishing process with a plank. It ends up being a lovely amazing shade of green with the grain just popping through and a subtle sunburst. As I remember. But he goes through the whole process in detail - enough detail to remind me why I don't make 'em, I just play 'em.

Anyone remember or know the video I am talking about?

[Ed Goist]

Jeff; I haven't seen that one, but I really like this 9 video series on the finishing process for a violin.
Very similar, I'm sure, to the process for finishing a mandolin, however I know that not all (very few?) mandolin luthiers apply ground coat(s).
Very cool stuff.

[Nonprophet]

Is this it?




NP

[sunburst]

I believe Jeff is referring to James Condino's video. I think this is a link to it, but it might not workhttp://www.finewoodworking.com/Skill....aspx?id=30182

[JeffD]

I believe Jeff is referring to James Condino's video. I think this is a link to it, but it might not workhttp://www.finewoodworking.com/Skill....aspx?id=30182

Yes that is it. Just amazing. I can't watch it without imagining myself screwing it up with every other step. There is a lot of wisdom in practicing with a plank or two or several, before touching a musical instrument.

[Jules Tenney]

Gents, just checking in with my evening finishing question:

I'm trying to start to mentally rehearse the staining process. Do you stain the top, back and neck and sides in seperate stages, or do you do the whole thing at once?

I have settled on Behlen Nutmeg Brown as the closest thing I can find to the colour of the Gibson Jam Masters (in some photographs anyway...) and it's close enough

Nutmeg Brown:


Nice Gibson Mandolins

[sunburst]

Do you stain the top, back and neck and sides in seperate stages, or do you do the whole thing at once?

It doesn't really matter, especially if you are staining everything one color. I do the top, the back, the rim, then the neck, but as I said, it doesn't matter.

In the sunburst video above (that's me, BTW), I stained the whole mandolin with amber in the order above (I think...) then did the burst on the top followed by the rest of the coloring on the rest of the instrument.

[Tavy]

I'm trying to start to mentally rehearse the staining process. Do you stain the top, back and neck and sides in seperate stages, or do you do the whole thing at once?

A bit of both - assuming that Behlan's is a "wipe on wipe off" product like most water based dyes, I slap the dye on one surface (neck, or back, or sides or top), then immediately wipe off with a clean cloth - this ensures an even colour over that area. Then I immediately move on to the next surface and repeat. What I don't do is multiple coats in one sitting - I let it dry fully first so I can evaluate what I have before adding any more dye. I believe some of the sunbusters do it all in one sitting though - IMO that takes more skill though

[Fretbear]

Because it is all the same color it shouldn't be too big a deal, but still the spruce top and maple sides will not behave exactly the same as far as absorption of the stain goes. I would want to at least slightly mask the sides and neck until I was done with the top, just to prevent inadvertent dribbles that I then had to match up after. For instance you might like the look of it with just one pass on the maple back and sides, but if it is already dribbled on, then you might have to end up making it look darker than you want it to. Just a thought.

[Jules Tenney]

In the sunburst video above (that's me, BTW

I doff my cap to you. Nice.

I picked up the dye this morning, so I am now offically dangerous. It's not water based, it's solvent based, and the chap at Behlen's said "this is fantastic stuff, but this is the last of it since the regulations changed. When it's gone it's gone. You ought to get a few extras to put to one side if you like it. The WB stuff is not as good as this".

I got some retarger too, so I'll play around on some scraps of wood now and see what happens...

[Jules Tenney]

Tonight's question, finshing fans, is:

Do I need a sealer between Behlen Solar Lux dye, and Tru Oil. On my very scrappy sample, the oil did not appear to move the dye.

BTW, the Nutmeg Brown does not look like the sample once on wood. It's a beguiling red / brown. Sometimes it's red. Sometimes it's brown. But's it's too red. The advice about different light is spot on - thanks.

I am going to make 6 practice surfaces. Got an old shelf that I can cut into three top shapes, and have a crack at each side = 6.

My f-holes are now finished, so that means it's time to take the strings and hardware back off. Part of the problem I've got, is not playing it when I'm supposed to be working on it...

[Jim Hilburn]

I think sealing with sprayed shellac is always a good idea before hand applying any clearcoat.
If something is too red before clearcoats, watch out because red explodes once it's coated. When I spray it on it can look invisible but look very bright once clearcoated.

[Dale Ludewig]

I haven't read every post here. But it is important to make sure your sample wood is the same as your final wood. Sealing at this point seems like a good idea. Jim is right as to red becoming quite vibrant after being sprayed. (Not that that's a bad thing) When you're working with your samples, if it is too red, you can move it to brownish by adding a bit of green into the mix. Ideally you should spray this because you can control it more than by hand applying whatever mixture you're using. The other side of this "solution" is that is will darken the look as it moves to the brown. And you never know exactly what it will look like until it's clearcoated.

[Keith Newell]

Here is a picture of a single color F model of mine.
Keith

[Jules Tenney]

Here is a picture of a single color F model of mine.
Keith

Nice! What finish is on that? That's not tru-oil...

[Tavy]

Jules - although you can put TruOil straight on - IMO you get a better/smoother finish if you seal with shellac first.

HTH, John.

[Jules Tenney]

Here is a picture of a single color F model of mine.
Keith

What did you do to make the grain look so good? Is that just what happens, or did you force the contrasts somehow? On my scrap, the grain is really accentuated with the dye, but my scrap is very scrappy. I need to make a half decent top to practice on I think.

[Jules Tenney]

When I picked up my dye, the chap at Behlen's wasn't over-enthusiastic about tru-oil. Reckoned it would need re-doing quite frequently. That doesn't really jive with what I've read - I think he might have thought I meant a tung oil? He recommended their aerosols of stringed instrument lacquer. That does appear to be an easy way of spraying a lacquer. He reckoned on 3 cans for a mandolin @ £10 a can.

Anyone have any experiences with either i) the longevity of tru-oil; ii) the aerosols?

I'm quite happy with my experiments with tru-oil so far, but a lacquer would be something to think about, if I can do it easily...

[Jim Hilburn]

Jules, I think your starting to grasp the concept that there's no easy way to achieve a great finish. It takes a lot of effort and there's a steep learning curve for any method you decide to choose.
That's why they invented lacquer, a way to avoid many of the pitfalls asscociated with the more traditional finishes. Yet it isn't easy to deal with either. Used in a factory setting where your doing a lot of instruments it makes things much easier but for your first finish...
Still probably a good way to proceed since it's available to you. And it is basically it's own sealer coat. Buy an extra can for practice.
Try to make the first coat very thin.

[j. condino]

.....a fellow, a guitar maker if I remember....

[Tavy]

When I picked up my dye, the chap at Behlen's wasn't over-enthusiastic about tru-oil. Reckoned it would need re-doing quite frequently.

IMO there's no issue with durability of TruOil - it's pretty tough if anything - though perhaps less resistant to dings than some others - but that's because it's so flexible which is also a good thing... so you pays your money and takes your choice

[Fretbear]

Anyone who can build a mandolin as nice as you have can surely do a beautiful lacquer finish, even on the first try. Lacquer is an excellent finish for a musical instrument, it provides great protection for the mandolin and sounds great as well.
It is very forgiving; if it runs somewhere you can easily just sand it out after (the same day!) and then spray over it and it will all blend together as if nothing ever happened in the first place. If you go with lacquer you have lots of options. You can spray the top with a colored lacquer of your choice (spray a lacquer primer coat first of the same color if available) and then stain the back and sides a different color, afterwards spraying multiple coats of a clear matte or glossy lacquer coat over that stain.
Getting a great-looking spruce top is fairly easy with a colored lacquer. The maple back and sides are more amenable to being stained and then clear-coated with lacquer (and still looking good) than a softwood top is in my experience. Initially the colored lacquer will have an "orange peel" look, but after the lacquer gasses-off and cures, which can take several weeks or months, you can then buff it up to a beautiful shine with some super-fine wet and dry sandpaper followed by a buffing compound.

[Jules Tenney]

Thanks. This evening I cut a rough top from an old shelf, sanded it down and stained it. No real problems, so I feel much more confident. As it happens, you just seem to whack it on. I went for the Behlen Medium Brown Mahogany stain, and it's red when you put it on, but it browns out as it dries. It looks like a colour that can either blend into the shadows - or come out under the lights. Maybe the greater red when it's wet is the same thing you said about how red jumps out under a finish? Applying an even stain was not difficult at all.

If the mando looks as good as my rough cut, then I may well want to go for a better finish than tru-oil. I think I'd be tempted to try a french polish, rather than lacquer. I just like the idea of doing it. I think if I go down that road I need to French polish a practice piece first, all the way through, and learn how to do it. I might sand off a £15 ukelele and have a play.

This is all great advice, I'm learning a real lot here. Thanks also for the kind words on the mandolin, and yes, I am just coming to terms with just how hard a great finsih really is!

[Tavy]

Thanks. This evening I cut a rough top from an old shelf, sanded it down and stained it. No real problems, so I feel much more confident. As it happens, you just seem to whack it on. I went for the Behlen Medium Brown Mahogany stain, and it's red when you put it on, but it browns out as it dries. It looks like a colour that can either blend into the shadows - or come out under the lights. Maybe the greater red when it's wet is the same thing you said about how red jumps out under a finish?

Nod. Usual rule of thumb is that the surface will look like it does when wet once the finish is on.